Shepherds among sheep....

[bigus_D]

What will an armed civilian do if there was an abusive customer there,

SHOOT I HOPE! I hate abusive customers!

..or if a domestic fight broke out between a couple

SHOOT I HOPE! That's what guns are for, duh!

.. or if someone ran out on their tab?

The answer couldn't be any more obvious... shoot the guy in the leg!

If this was a quiz, I think I'd have gotten an A+!

 

[IndySSD]

Carrying a firearm is for self-defense, not for vigilante BS

I couldn't agree more. None of the situations you listed fall anywhere near a "Justifiable intervention point" in my book. Those are all "Put a call into LE and let them handle it" situations. Now if someone enters the restaurant, barricades the doors and produces a weapon and starts ordering everyone down and threatening to attack people, then yes, I would take the first possible opportunity to take a clear shot that I had. Everything changes with every little detail though.

I can't speak for VUPDBlue and his use of the term "Shepherd" but when I say "Sheepdog" I am merely referring to someone who moves among the "Sheep" *who are mostly defenseless, herd mentality, follow the leader types that comprise a large majority of the populace around Indiana* and is not only "Minding my own Freaking Business" but making sure that a violent criminal doesn't get a chance to move beyond the person they are currently focused on to me or my loved ones.

even if that's what makes you feel better. In other words, MYOFB, you're not the town savior.

I'm definitely not anyone's "Savior" but I'm not going stand by and do nothing if people in my immediate vicinity are being slaughtered.

If someone is getting some money stolen, meh, it's money, not worth going to war over.

If someone is threatening the safety of me or the safety of my loved ones, then it's time to G2W, even if I am doing so with a butter knife and my bare hands.

 

[VUPDblue]

So if you're police, you think your job is to "shepherd sheep", and by calling unarmed civilians sheep, you're implying that you'd rather have everyone armed so that the police won't have to do what they're paid to do.I would rather an armed civilian deter a crime from happening than have the police have to clean-up the aftermath. Is this right? It might be, or it might not be. Depends on who you ask. On the other hand, if you're a civilian and you carried in this restaurant, and you think you're "shepherding sheep", just what do you think you'll do if there was a disturbance?I don't know and I hope I never have to find out. I also hope I don't have to find out why I carry a spare set of house keys, but I do anyway. What will an armed civilian do if there was an abusive customer there, or if a domestic fight broke out between a couple, or if someone ran out on their tab? Nothing, hopefully. These are not the types of reasons I carry a firearm. Will you have acted like a "hero" and drawn your gun and shot people? Nope. Just what do you think you are "shepherding" people from, from deadly encounters. and by the way, did these people ask you to be their "shepherd"? Nope, and I don't carry for the sake of others, just my family and those in my "group". Carrying a firearm is for self-defense, not for vigilante BS, Agreed. even if that's what makes you feel better. It doesn't. In other words, MYOFB, you're not the town savior.

Well you certainly are opinionated. That said, if you're trolling for a fight here, you aren't going to find it. Many a person carries a firearm for self-defense and far be it from me to judge their reasoning. I have no delusions of grandeur, nor do I desire to be a "hero". There is a fair amount of "badness" in the world today and I want to be prepared to protect myself from it, I carry a firearm in case that might be required. I carry a flashlight in case the power goes out. I carry a knife in case I need to slice the cheesecake. I hope I never have to use some of the tools I carry, but I am prepared to do so if need be. Well, I do hope I have to cut the cheesecake...most of the time they cut those pieces too small for my liking...

 

[riverman67]

So if you're police, you think your job is to "shepherd sheep", and by calling unarmed civilians sheep, you're implying that you'd rather have everyone armed so that the police won't have to do what they're paid to do. Is this right? On the other hand, if you're a civilian and you carried in this restaurant, and you think you're "shepherding sheep", just what do you think you'll do if there was a disturbance? What will an armed civilian do if there was an abusive customer there, or if a domestic fight broke out between a couple, or if someone ran out on their tab? Will you have acted like a "hero" and drawn your gun and shot people? Just what do you think you are "shepherding" people from, and by the way, did these people ask you to be their "shepherd"? Carrying a firearm is for self-defense, not for vigilante BS, even if that's what makes you feel better. In other words, MYOFB, you're not the town savior.

Uh I think that you may have missed the point of the post

Welcome to INGO

 

[VUPDblue]

Welcome to INGO

Maybe the world's shortest stay....

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Nuts, I didn't even have time to tell what you could do in there with a flame thrower....

 

[OWGEM]

So if you're police, you think your job is to "shepherd sheep", and by calling unarmed civilians sheep, you're implying that you'd rather have everyone armed so that the police won't have to do what they're paid to do. Is this right? On the other hand, if you're a civilian and you carried in this restaurant, and you think you're "shepherding sheep", just what do you think you'll do if there was a disturbance? What will an armed civilian do if there was an abusive customer there, or if a domestic fight broke out between a couple, or if someone ran out on their tab? Will you have acted like a "hero" and drawn your gun and shot people? Just what do you think you are "shepherding" people from, and by the way, did these people ask you to be their "shepherd"? Carrying a firearm is for self-defense, not for vigilante BS, even if that's what makes you feel better. In other words, MYOFB, you're not the town savior.

Yeah but do you have any opinions? Don't hold back.

 

[Tripp11]

Well, VUPD certainly didn't take the bait and had a much more rationale reply than I could have ever hoped of posting. Kudos.

 

[UncleMike]

Smoking357 ??? is that you???

That was my first thought too!
Mike

 

[Scarnucci]

I have to agree with Harried, in that I found the reference to the "Shepherds and the sheep" to be distasteful. It reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that many civilians believe exists between the police and the populace.

Its very likely not the point that the OP was trying to make, but that is the way it came across to me, and I didn't care for it.

 

[IndySSD]

I have to agree with Harried, in that I found the reference to the "Shepherds and the sheep" to be distasteful. It reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that many civilians believe exists between the police and the populace.

Its very likely not the point that the OP was trying to make, but that is the way it came across to me, and I didn't care for it.

Not sure if my "Sheepdog" comment is included in this but this is a published, well known and respected method of distinguishing personality types as they pertain to safety/violence in society.

Excerpts taken from On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep.

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who only hurt one another by accident."


If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep

If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog.

 

[Bounty Hunter]

I went out to dinner this evening with my wife and daughter. We chose a restaurant that was moderately crowded and sat down. As I looked around I noticed that between myself, a fellow INGOer and 3 of my off-duty police buddies, the sheep were well shepherded....and not a single one of them likely knew it. I just found it interesting that there were at least 5 armed individuals in the building and the world didn't come to an end

Don't sweat it. I think most know where you are coming from. I notice those things myself.

 

[IndySSD]

Originally Posted by Scarnucci
I have to agree with Harried, in that I found the reference to the "Shepherds and the sheep" to be distasteful. It reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that many civilians believe exists between the police and the populace.

Its very likely not the point that the OP was trying to make, but that is the way it came across to me, and I didn't care for it.

I can't speak for VUPDBlue but:

Really I feel as though it's US (Police and armed, trained/practiced, law abiding citizens AKA Sheepdogs ) AND Them (Sheep) VS Violent Criminals (Wolves).

Granted oftentimes "Not so trained/practiced armed citizens wind up becoming victims or getting in the way of LEO" But if a gunman enters a mall *as in the case of Omaha last Dec 911 Tapes Capture Mall Shooting Horror - CBS News * I'd rather have a civi sheepdog who is willing and prepared to engage the BG to end the threat of this killing spree so my wife and child have a better chance of surviving because maybe the nearest LEO is 2 miles away instead of not have anyone armed or prepared to engage the BG because maybe the BG hasn't pointed their weapon at the "MYOB and RUN" LTCH holder.

 

[Scarnucci]

Not sure if my "Sheepdog" comment is included in this but this is a published, well known and respected method of distinguishing personality types as they pertain to safety/violence in society.

I do not find that method of distinguishing personality types respectful. It is more of the same, strong vs the weak, us vs them mentality that reinforces the misconception that those with guns or badges have authority over the rest of the citizenry.

I reiterate that I don't believe the OP meant to be disrespectful with his comments, but the perception is there.

 

[IndySSD]

I do not find that method of distinguishing personality types respectful. It is more of the same, strong vs the weak, us vs them mentality that reinforces the misconception that those with guns or badges have authority over the rest of the citizenry.

See, even someone from this site isn't understanding what I'm saying. Please elaborate what you mean by this statement because maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand what you are saying?

Its the STRONG AND THE WEAK VS the Wolves. No authority involved in what I'm talking about.

I don't find this a hard concept to grasp. I understand that misconceptions are our enemies as supporters of the constitution and the second amendment but I can't live my life worrying 100% about whether or not someone likes how I classify them when I sweep a room visually and perform a threat assessment.



I reiterate that I don't believe the OP meant to be disrespectful with his comments, but the perception is there.

No, I agree that VUPDBlue is NOT intending to be disrespectful but I also believe that it's not his responsibility to cater to "Sheep" who have misconstrued perceptions of safety and how then enjoy that perceived safety.

"Sheep" aren't safe just because laws exist. Sheep are safe *when they are safe* because sheepdogs have MADE/KEEP IT SAFE FOR THEM.

Anyone who disagrees is merely deluding themselves in my opinion.

I don't mean any disrespect when I use the term "Sheep", when I mean disrespect, I use the term "Sheeple". I know it's only one letter difference and maybe people outside of my personal circle don't understand the difference but I'm just honestly not that concerned about what the "Sheeple" think.

I CC safely and responsibly and generally neither the sheep nor sheeple that I'm around have any idea because they are generally too busy talking on cellphones, staring down at the floor, entertaining the people they are associating with or managing to ignore their surroundings in some other way while I quietly and inconspicuously keep my eyes open for wolves on the prowl.

 

[Scarnucci]

I think you may be missing my point. I'lll try to clarify how I interpreted the OP's statement that the "sheep were well shepherded" and why I have issues with it.

The shepherd holds the power of life and death over the sheep. The sheep must be guided to food and water. The shepherd chooses when to cull the ignorant, defenseless sheep. The sheep have no power of their own, the shepherd holds it all.

Now, with those inferences in mind, lets extrapolate that to a LEO making comments on how him and his LEO buddies were out with their families, and how does he perceive the public that pays his salary? As sheep, and he and his LEO buddies are the power wielding shepherds.

Am I reading more into this than the OP intended? Probably. But even his casually tossed out comment has an impact. I believe it reinforces the sentiment that many people have of police having some sort of holier than thou attitude when it comes to them and the rest of the citizens. That they are on one side of their precious thin blue line...the battle line...and the rest of us arent.

 

[IndySSD]

I think you may be missing my point. I'lll try to clarify how I interpreted the OP's statement that the "sheep were well shepherded" and why I have issues with it.

The shepherd holds the power of life and death over the sheep. The sheep must be guided to food and water. The shepherd chooses when to cull the ignorant, defenseless sheep. The sheep have no power of their own, the shepherd holds it all.

Now, with those inferences in mind, lets extrapolate that to a LEO making comments on how him and his LEO buddies were out with their families, and how does he perceive the public that pays his salary? As sheep, and he and his LEO buddies are the power wielding shepherds.

Am I reading more into this than the OP intended? Probably. But even his casually tossed out comment has an impact. I believe it reinforces the sentiment that many people have of police having some sort of holier than thou attitude when it comes to them and the rest of the citizens. That they are on one side of their precious thin blue line...the battle line...and the rest of us arent.

Thank you for explaining, I can see where you're coming from on this point I suppose (Even though I don't share the same view, I can see how this view can be formed.)

That being said, I agree that there is and NEEDS to be a "Thin" blue line between LEO and Civi's but I would state that it's the Civi's who choose to view that line as the "Battle Line" instead of what I would consider to be the REAL "Battle Line" which is what separates both the Civi and LE Sheepdogs along with the "Sheep" from the wolves.

Also I think you will notice that "Sheepdogs" are not the same as what you perceive as the "Shepherd" as stated below.

Originally Posted by Scarnucci :

The shepherd holds the power of life and death over the sheep. The sheep must be guided to food and water. The shepherd chooses when to cull the ignorant, defenseless sheep. The sheep have no power of their own, the shepherd holds it all.

All in all I think at this point this conversation is just an exercise in semantics.

 

[VUPDblue]

I didn't mean any disrespect to any group at all. I don't commonly use the terms "sheep and shepherd" but I thought it sounded fitting since so many others use that terminology. My post was not to reinforce any particular caste separation, but rather to point out something that I noticed and wanted to share. I'll be sure to choose my words more carefully next time.

 

[IndySSD]

I didn't mean any disrespect to any group at all. I don't commonly use the terms "sheep and shepherd" but I thought it sounded fitting since so many others use that terminology. My post was not to reinforce any particular caste separation, but rather to point out something that I noticed and wanted to share. I'll be sure to choose my words more carefully next time.

Class act IMO ^^

 

[mammynun]

I do not find that method of distinguishing personality types respectful. It is more of the same, strong vs the weak, us vs them mentality that reinforces the misconception that those with guns or badges have authority over the rest of the citizenry.

I reiterate that I don't believe the OP meant to be disrespectful with his comments, but the perception is there.

So if I understand, the issue that you have with the OP is essentially that a LEO posted it? If a non-LEO, such as myself, had posted it there would be no "issue?"