Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[BugI02]

Again, in case I haven't made it abundantly clear yet, I completely agree that all the gay/transgender nonsense going on with Ukraine's political leaders is absolutely wrong and abhorrent, and I don't disagree with calling them out for it. What I am disagreeing with is the people who seem to think that it makes the entire country and it's population not worth supporting.

What you are saying is just nonsense. We have no strategic interest in the Ukraine war

If we stopped right now, we would have given them over $100 BILLION in assistance, including some very advanced weaponry. That is at least twice as much as all other countries comblined - including the EU countries who are clamoring so loudly that if Ukraine falls, Europe/NATO will be in danger

So, you are saying Ukraine is worth supporting; what we are saying is that support should not only have limits but we have exceeded them and done more than our share. By insisting that we must 'beat Russia' you are ignoring the reality that Ukraine cannot do it as well as the danger that Russia will totally destroy Ukraine, no matter what we do, but that the danger of accidentally setting off a nuclear war is quite high while this war is happening - and only the very foolish think in terms of winning or losing a nuclear war or the concept of a 'limited nuclear exchange'

A reminder:

 

[BugI02]

Why can't we simply think that the Ukrainian cause is worthy of support but not think that we're the ones that have to do so and perhaps the first world countries who have this going on in their back yard should be the ones to clean up the mess?

"There's nothing contradictory about holding both of these positions at once, and yet some people in this thread seem to think that you can't possibly do so."

 

[AndreusMaximus]

What you are saying is just nonsense. We have no strategic interest in the Ukraine war

We have no strategic interest in seeing that one of our historically biggest rivals and adversaries is unsuccessful in their hostile takeover of an independent country, which would be the first step towards rebuilding the totalitarian, communist empire that was once powerful enough to potentially take us on, even in a conventional war?

Yes, our support should have limits, and clearly defined goals.

Yes, we should question whether or not our supposed allies in Europe are doing anywhere near their fair share.

Yes, all our actions should be weighed against the risk of nuclear war, and avoiding such a conflict should be top priority.

But I just don't see how the absolute claim that we have "no strategic interest" can be true, and it doesn't really seem to jive with the rest of what you're saying.

 

[BugI02]

Strategic interests would be things that are existential, like the invasion via our southern border or our unsustainable national debt or our loss of energy independence or the fact that our schools turn out so many kids useless for a modern industrial economy

The supposed 'first step to rebuilding the totalitarian communist empire' is not necessary or sufficient to that claimed purpose. If Russia became an imminent threat to the west again, containment could be revived (and it would be easier than it is now because the Europeans would be on board rather than scheming to end run around sanctions) but it would make little difference to that equation whether Ukraine was independent or not

We defeated the Russians already 30+ years ago, and did it by encouraging them to collapse their economy via unsustainable military spending. We are now vulnerable to the same fate

 

[erasure]

We defeated the Russians already 30+ years ago

are you sure

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Strategic interests would be things that are existential,

Well, that's not a definition of "strategic interest" that I've heard of before, but now that I know that's what you meant, yes, that makes sense.

Yes, I'll readily admit that we've got higher priorities than Russia on our plate.

 

[Ark]

Strategic interests would be things that are existential, like the invasion via our southern border or our unsustainable national debt or our loss of energy independence or the fact that our schools turn out so many kids useless for a modern industrial economy

The supposed 'first step to rebuilding the totalitarian communist empire' is not necessary or sufficient to that claimed purpose. If Russia became an imminent threat to the west again, containment could be revived (and it would be easier than it is now because the Europeans would be on board rather than scheming to end run around sanctions) but it would make little difference to that equation whether Ukraine was independent or not

We defeated the Russians already 30+ years ago, and did it by encouraging them to collapse their economy via unsustainable military spending. We are now vulnerable to the same fate

Completely agree. There is no argument for American interests in Ukraine that doesn't rely on emotional manipulation. We do not need NATO to expand in order for our nation to survive.

The US has no more interest in Ukraine than in Georgia or Chechnya, where Russia also fought entire wars with zero media interest or US attention. The only difference is our presidential crime family reaps millions in bribes from Ukraine.

A new trillion dollar war so a senile plutocrat and his family can make a few tens of millions.

 

[smokingman]

I'm sorry. I replied before you had made the edit with the additional "side note"; otherwise that would have clarified things to me. I did, indeed, misread your initial post that I responded to, and also in going back I realized that I had confused a couple posts made by other members and in my memory attributed them as things that you had said.

I see now that you were not actually trying to say what I accused you of, and I apologize.

Thank you.
Appreciate you saying that.

 

[Brad69]

Did I catch the the Ukrainians want to kill people that don't support them?

Here is the link if you wanna put your skin on the line. Take a couple of your kids with you.

Join the Brave

International Legion for the Defence of Ukraine formed by Presidential decree right after the outbreak of full-scale russian invasion, the Legion has taken part in the majority of the crucial campaigns and battles of the war. The International Legion consists of infantry and special task...

www.ildu.com.ua

No Kelly Blue ID guys can't go!

 

[KellyinAvon]

Did I catch the the Ukrainians want to kill people that don't support them?

There's the ugly dude wearing a dress that said it. Not sure if there were more.

 

[smokingman]

Did I catch the the Ukrainians want to kill people that don't support them?

Here is the link if you wanna put your skin on the line. Take a couple of your kids with you.

Join the Brave

International Legion for the Defence of Ukraine formed by Presidential decree right after the outbreak of full-scale russian invasion, the Legion has taken part in the majority of the crucial campaigns and battles of the war. The International Legion consists of infantry and special task...

www.ildu.com.ua

No Kelly Blue ID guys can't go!

I did not find the link were they started,but it was an English broadcast sent to much of the EU and US media.

 

[actaeon277]

Well he was a submarine expert. No offense to those that bravely serve below the waves…

Many submariners didn't want him.
And many nukes don't want to claim him.

 

[BugI02]

Well, that's not a definition of "strategic interest" that I've heard of before, but now that I know that's what you meant, yes, that makes sense.

Yes, I'll readily admit that we've got higher priorities than Russia on our plate.

I can't really think of anything else about Ukraine that is strategic. If we/NATO want to base military assets mere minutes from Russian territory, we can already do that in Poland (where there is no love lost for the Russians) or the Gulf of Finland (depressed trajectory Trident D5)

They grow a lot of food, but we don't need it and it makes more sense to buy from Canada if we ever do. We don't need real estate to pump eastern bloc natural gas to the west. Forward basing on Ukrainian soil gets us only minuscule strategic advantage, mostly in launch detection and boost phase interception

The definition you seem to prefer for strategic appears to be useful in achieving military ends or deterring unwanted military problems, but that is only true for the EU if we are talking realpolitik. The only sort of sneak attack we need to defend against ia the type of attack from within Biden is spearheading or a first strike, and about the only use Ukraine would be for that is to come up with the DNC hard drives or the 33000 emails or both. In fact, keeping Ukraine dependent on US largesse might be more a way to keep them on a tight leash than a realistic plan to help them defeat Russia. A substantial segment of our political class seem to be in up to their necks on Ukrainian corruption, hence the 'bipartisan' support

 

[BugI02]

Did I catch the the Ukrainians want to kill people that don't support them?

Here is the link if you wanna put your skin on the line. Take a couple of your kids with you.

Join the Brave

International Legion for the Defence of Ukraine formed by Presidential decree right after the outbreak of full-scale russian invasion, the Legion has taken part in the majority of the crucial campaigns and battles of the war. The International Legion consists of infantry and special task...

www.ildu.com.ua

No Kelly Blue ID guys can't go!

The Ukrainians will need a catchy name, though; and ISIS and Mujahideen are already taken

Zelenskas? Reichsadler Brigades?

 

[bwframe]

 

[Brad69]

The Ukrainians will need a catchy name, though; and ISIS and Mujahideen are already taken

Zelenskas? Reichsadler Brigades?

Red Death!

 

[smokingman]

Zelenski should try one of Henry Fords lines at the UN.
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done."

Rising Ammunition Prices Could Interfere With Western Plans To Arm Ukraine | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Evidence Suggests Ukrainian Missile Caused Market Tragedy

The Sept. 6 missile strike on Kostiantynivka in eastern Ukraine was one of the deadliest in the country in months, killing at least 15 civilians and injuring more than 30 others. The weapon’s payload of metal fragments struck a market, piercing windows and walls and wounding some victims beyond...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Hawkeye]

Yeah, that Doolittle raid on Germany only four months after Pearl sure was something

Are you denying the fact that we adopted a Europe first strategy in WW2? Because no historian worth his salt would agree with you. The Doolittle raid was done for morale purposes and served very little military purpose. Embarrassing to the Japanese, but little strategic impact.

 

[Hawkeye]

You enter a war to win or you don’t enter at all. We have weapons that we refuse to use to end this. unless we are going to run Russia out of money, we need to stop sending money.

We haven't "entered a war". we are supporting the unjustly invaded party, but we are not engaged in a war.

 

[jamil]

It's a proxy war which we have entered to enrich the military industrial complex. What could the US have done to prevent the invasion in the first place? Well, nothing if you want to make money.