Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[buckwacker]

Please show your work. If you're goin to ASSume a stance from me you need to be able to back it up.

Maybe a little highlighting may help.

And this has what to do with Russia invading a sovereign country? You have refused to answer my question multiple times but I will try one more time: is it ok to invade another country as has been done here? Should that action be ignored or responded to? All of your posts are excuses of why it’s ok, which tells us that you think it’s fine but when called out on that spin it as we are war mongers or sone other ********. So please answer the question

Now, I can only infer from your line of questioning that you believe Russia is wrong because they invaded a sovereign country. Was the US not then wrong to have invaded Iraq and Libya, or is it ok because it was MY country? Both countries gave "reasons" for their invasions.

 

[Wolfhound]

Every country that looks out for its own interests will do things that other countries don’t approve of. We are talking about nations and not people. Governments change and so do foreign policies.

Has the United States invaded other sovereign nations? Yes

Has Russia invaded other sovereign nations? Also yes

Is the United States supporting Ukraine against Russia including boots on the ground? Yes

Has Russia supported foreign nations against the United States in the same way we are supporting Ukraine including boots on the ground? Also yes please see Vietnam

If you are only seeing one side of this then you have the answer to where your loyalties are.

 

[bobzilla]

Maybe a little highlighting may help.

Now, I can only infer from your line of questioning that you believe Russia is wrong because they invaded a sovereign country. Was the US not then wrong to have invaded Iraq and Libya, or is it ok because it was MY country? Both countries gave "reasons" for their invasions.

Yeah that’s a pretty big leap there. Nice try though but it’s still not a passing grade. Still avoiding the question and playing whataboutism.

I’ll at least play your game. Iraq was not just the US invading another country. 41 countries viewed the information and concluded that saddam was a bigger threat to the world. I do not remember the us invading Libya. We conducted air strikes and assisted the Libyan govt forces facing isis. Not exactly an invasion. But that’s still avoiding your question. Should we have been involved? With the information we have available now about wmd etc no. At the time when intelligence showed something completely different? Still no but we could support our 40 other Allies in their endeavors.

I’ve long thought it was time for the US to stop playing world police and stop interfering in others politics. Even at that the US forces don’t fill mass graves with women and children and shell civilians intentionally (at least in the last 50 years) to strike fear into the populace. So trying to string the two countries actions together as same/same is disingenuous at best and playing a troll at worst.

 

[smokingman]

Every country that looks out for its own interests will do things that other countries don’t approve of. We are talking about nations and not people. Governments change and so do foreign policies.

Has the United States invaded other sovereign nations? Yes

Has Russia invaded other sovereign nations? Also yes

Is the United States supporting Ukraine against Russia including boots on the ground? Yes

Has Russia supported foreign nations against the United States in the same way we are supporting Ukraine including boots on the ground? Also yes please see Vietnam

If you are only seeing one side of this then you have the answer to where your loyalties are.

I am not loyal to a government or a foreign policy.
I am loyal to the constitution of the United States, that I took an oath to protect.

Blind loyalty to government rather they are right or wrong is part of the problem in the USA, on both sides of the isle.

 

[buckwacker]

Yeah that’s a pretty big leap there. Nice try though but it’s still not a passing grade. Still avoiding the question and playing whataboutism.

I’ll at least play your game. Iraq was not just the US invading another country. 41 countries viewed the information and concluded that saddam was a bigger threat to the world. I do not remember the us invading Libya. We conducted air strikes and assisted the Libyan govt forces facing isis. Not exactly an invasion. But that’s still avoiding your question. Should we have been involved? With the information we have available now about wmd etc no. At the time when intelligence showed something completely different? Still no but we could support our 40 other Allies in their endeavors.

I’ve long thought it was time for the US to stop playing world police and stop interfering in others politics. Even at that the US forces don’t fill mass graves with women and children and shell civilians intentionally (at least in the last 50 years) to strike fear into the populace. So trying to string the two countries actions together as same/same is disingenuous at best and playing a troll at worst.

Whataboutism is the trope that hypocrites trot out when they can't answer a direct question about their hypocrisy with a well reasoned logical response.

Do you think Russia could cobble together 41 countries to support their invasion if they were the world's only superpower and the vehicle for controlling the global financial system? And you remember Libya differently than I do; we sided with rebels to depose their government. Ever heard of Gadaffi, or what happened to him.

Every government gives their reasons for what they do. The torrent of lies and propaganda from my government that have come to light over the last several years have given me reason to question my government's given reasons for everything.

 

[Wolfhound]

Every country that looks out for its own interests will do things that other countries don’t approve of. We are talking about nations and not people. Governments change and so do foreign policies.

Has the United States invaded other sovereign nations? Yes

Has Russia invaded other sovereign nations? Also yes

Is the United States supporting Ukraine against Russia including boots on the ground? Yes

Has Russia supported foreign nations against the United States in the same way we are supporting Ukraine including boots on the ground? Also yes please see Vietnam

I am not loyal to a government or a foreign policy.
I am loyal to the constitution of the United States, that I took an oath to protect.

Blind loyalty to government rather they are right or wrong is part of the problem in the USA, on both sides of the isle.

Be thankful you live in a country that allows free thinking and expression. I am also loyal to the US Constitution and I took that same oath. I believe government policy should be questioned. I have done fairly well in this country and have more than paid my dues to its Constitution. I am still thankful to live here and not in a nation that only benefits politicians and oligarchs even though there are plenty of problems that need solved.

 

[asevans]

It’s never ok to invade sovereign country. Kings, queens, empires, counties have been doing it since the beginning of man.
I believe Russia was provoked into doing this by NATO.
I believe the Ukraine has been a part of Russia on and off for hundreds of years. NATO promised Russia it would not move east. Russia drew a line with Ukraine. Ukrainian government is a totalitarian evil regime same as Russia.
Let them slug it out.
We have invaded several counties and put in our puppet governments.
What’s the difference?
The difference is most watch to much main stream media propaganda.

 

[buckwacker]

Be thankful you live in a country that allows free thinking and expression. I am also loyal to the US Constitution and I took that same oath. I believe government policy should be questioned. I have done fairly well in this country and have more than paid my dues to its Constitution. I am still thankful to live here and not in a nation that only benefits politicians and oligarchs even though there are plenty of problems that need solved.

I am thankful to live here, and I love my country, and my Constitution. I don't know of anywhere else I would want to live. But blind loyalty to "elected" government who've been shown to walk all over my Constitution and citizens rights is foolish. If one cannot see that your government is quickly becoming THE domestic enemy of the country, then one hasn't really been paying attention.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Getting a bit heated here. Deep breath, thread between the ditches.

Please read between the lines that it’s not a good day to question my style of moderation.

 

[KG1]

Be thankful you live in a country that allows free thinking and expression....

Not for long.

 

[Wolfhound]

Not for long.

That’s an entirely different discussion.

 

[Wolfhound]

I think 99.9% of us are reasonable and do not show “blind” loyalty to anyone or anything. It may seem otherwise but it’s really not the case.

 

[bobzilla]

Whataboutism is the trope that hypocrites trot out when they can't answer a direct question about their hypocrisy with a well reasoned logical response.

Do you think Russia could cobble together 41 countries to support their invasion if they were the world's only superpower and the vehicle for controlling the global financial system? And you remember Libya differently than I do; we sided with rebels to depose their government. Ever heard of Gadaffi, or what happened to him.

Every government gives their reasons for what they do. The torrent of lies and propaganda from my government that have come to light over the last several years have given me reason to question my government's given reasons for everything.

I answered your question and I see no signs of hypocrisy on my end. You can "remember differently" all you want, fact of the matter is we did not have hundreds of boots on the ground forcefully taking real estate and holding it. We also did not execute thousands of civilians and bury them in a mass grave.

I think sending in a couple hundred air strikes, a dozen SF advisors on the ground and the support from the UK is a bit different than rolling in with 10's of thousands of troops, tanks and artillery to forcefully occupy territory don't you?

 

[bobzilla]

I think 99.9% of us are reasonable and do not show “blind” loyalty to anyone or anything. It may seem otherwise but it’s really not the case.

this. I've not blindly followed anything but my wife for most of my life. Questioning her is not advisable.

 

[buckwacker]

I answered your question and I see no signs of hypocrisy on my end. You can "remember differently" all you want, fact of the matter is we did not have hundreds of boots on the ground forcefully taking real estate and holding it. We also did not execute thousands of civilians and bury them in a mass grave.

I think sending in a couple hundred air strikes, a dozen SF advisors on the ground and the support from the UK is a bit different than rolling in with 10's of thousands of troops, tanks and artillery to forcefully occupy territory don't you?

Hmmmm.... I didn't see an answer to my question.

I didn't claim we had boots on the ground in Libya, but you said we were defending their government from Isis which is categorically false. We took and held realestate in Iraq for years, perhaps based on made up intelligence to justify the invasion.

All I'm saying is you're buying the US government narrative on Russia, and after the deluge of Western anti-Russian propaganda we've been forced to float around in for the last several years, I'm failing to understand why a level headed person would do so with that as the backdrop. I'm not defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine or how their conducting military operations, but questioning why the West seems hell bent on taking them down. I don't really understand what's going on, but something ain't right.

But to claim the moral high ground because Russia "invaded a sovereign country" smacks of hypocrisy when you make excuses for our country doing the same.

 

[bobzilla]

Hmmmm.... I didn't see an answer to my question.

I didn't claim we had boots on the ground in Libya, but you said we were defending their government from Isis which is categorically false. We took and held realestate in Iraq for years, perhaps based on made up intelligence to justify the invasion.

All I'm saying is you're buying the US government narrative on Russia, and after the deluge of Western anti-Russian propaganda we've been forced to float around in for the last several years, I'm failing to understand why a level headed person would do so with that as the backdrop. I'm not defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine or how their conducting military operations, but questioning why the West seems hell bent on taking them down. I don't really understand what's going on, but something ain't right.

But to claim the moral high ground because Russia "invaded a sovereign country" smacks of hypocrisy when you make excuses for our country doing the same.

Apparently you might need some help with reading comprehension:

Yeah that’s a pretty big leap there. Nice try though but it’s still not a passing grade. Still avoiding the question and playing whataboutism.

I’ll at least play your game. Iraq was not just the US invading another country. 41 countries viewed the information and concluded that saddam was a bigger threat to the world. I do not remember the us invading Libya. We conducted air strikes and assisted the Libyan govt forces facing isis. Not exactly an invasion. But that’s still avoiding your question. Should we have been involved? With the information we have available now about wmd etc no. At the time when intelligence showed something completely different? Still no but we could support our 40 other Allies in their endeavors.

I’ve long thought it was time for the US to stop playing world police and stop interfering in others politics. Even at that the US forces don’t fill mass graves with women and children and shell civilians intentionally (at least in the last 50 years) to strike fear into the populace. So trying to string the two countries actions together as same/same is disingenuous at best and playing a troll at worst.

And I'm still waiting to see where we invaded libya, killed civilians and put them in mass graves.

 

[buckwacker]

Apparently you might need some help with reading comprehension:

And I'm still waiting to see where we invaded libya, killed civilians and put them in mass graves.

My comprehension seems fine. What I read was excuses for why it's ok for the US to use weak justifications for invading\attacking sovereign foreign countries while denigrating Russia for doing exactly the same.

 

[actaeon277]

It’s never ok to invade sovereign country. Kings, queens, empires, counties have been doing it since the beginning of man.

Really?
So, invading Germany and Japan at the conclusion of WWII was "not okay"?

Not invading Germany in WWI worked so well, that people thought they really weren't defeated, and went for round 2.
Since then... I don't remember them going at it for a 3rd strike.

 

[bobzilla]

My comprehension seems fine. What I read was excuses for why it's ok for the US to use weak justifications for invading\attacking sovereign foreign countries while denigrating Russia for doing exactly the same.

I'm not sure what is so hard to comprehend about "no". As with many things in life nothing is cut and dried black or white and extenuating circumstances make things muddy. But no is still no. I can understand the reasoning and rationale without condoning.

But you still have not shown me where we invaded Libya with thousands of troops or buried civilians in mass graves.

 

[oze]

Really?
So, invading Germany and Japan at the conclusion of WWII was "not okay"?

Not invading Germany in WWI worked so well, that people thought they really weren't defeated, and went for round 2.
Since then... I don't remember them going at it for a 3rd strike.

Yeah, but that's because The World wouldn't have let them be a country anymore if they went for it a 3rd time: