Robbery stopped by firearms instructor

[femurphy77]

Neutralized the threat. . . .

 

[possum_128]

This is why one should be a good witness and not some hero saving the day. He is lucky he didn't get himself or others killed. One against three are not good odds when it comes to a gun fight, a good instructor should know this. Even the police would more than likely wait for backup before engaging three armed robbers.

 

[Csquared]

It's good to see the instructor had the audacity to confront these worthless ****bags.. glad he wasn't injured in the gunfight and hopefully justice is swift for these goons.

 

[jgressley2003]

Call me Cynical Stanley, but I'm not sure this is a great example of defensive gun use.

Drawing, and yelling, some version of "Freeze" is not a great tactical decision. I don't mind him going back in to see what transpires. But if you're going to draw, you'd probably better start shooting, especially when outnumbered.

It was not clear from the story, but it sounds like these thugs used guns to induce fear, but hadn't actually shot anyone. Clearly, they were capable of it. But the decisions that led to this shoot-em-up endangered other people in the BK.

Now, this is totally MMQB. But isn't that what AARs are supposed to be?

Maybe you can show everyone how it's done the next time?

 

[T.Lex]

Maybe you can show everyone how it's done the next time?

So you were the shooter?

 

[Csquared]

I grew up just "West" of this location. I live NW of it now and occasionally roll through the drive threw for a breakfast sammy.

The thugs and low lifes are everywhere including outside 465. If there are section 9/hud apts in the vicinity they are there. They have cars. They come through areas looking for soft targets.

That a firearms instructor missed is a bit disheartening to me. I understand **** bag low lifes missing but not a trained instructor.

Not to disagree with your post whatsoever, but you never really do know how you'll react in a situation like that. Fight or flight kicks in and adrenaline takes over. Don't get me wrong, being a firearms instructor, he should have been able to neutralize the threat(s).. but it's clear he made a decision to enter hostile territory if he saw 3 people armed, he knew he was at a disadvantage and his mind probably went into hyper speed knowing he was putting his life on the line going back in there. I'm not condoning his re-entering of the establishment knowing he was outnumbered 3-1, because those odds aren't good.

Firearms instructor or not, nothing really prepares you for something like that.

 

[Doublehelix]

Sorry, this is just me, but if I saw these thugs going into BK putting on masks and I am already outside, I am getting in my car and calling 9-1-1, not following them in with my gun out. Now my gun *will* be out, but there to protect me and my loved ones. I can observe and report from my a distance in my car, get licence plate numbers, etc., but there is no way I am going in against 3-1 odds when they are carrying guns as well. Lucky shots happen all the time, and me getting killed does nothing to get these punks behind bars.

Now if they approach me, or I see them shooting someone, that is a different story.

 

[bb37]

Sorry, this is just me, but if I saw these thugs going into BK putting on masks and I am already outside, I am getting in my car and calling 9-1-1, not following them in with my gun out.

Ding! To me, in hindsight, with limited knowledge of the facts, this seems like the best approach.

 

[T.Lex]

Not to disagree with your post whatsoever, but you never really do know how you'll react in a situation like that. Fight or flight kicks in and adrenaline takes over. Don't get me wrong, being a firearms instructor, he should have been able to neutralize the threat(s).. but it's clear he made a decision to enter hostile territory if he saw 3 people armed, he knew he was at a disadvantage and his mind probably went into hyper speed knowing he was putting his life on the line going back in there. I'm not condoning his re-entering of the establishment knowing he was outnumbered 3-1, because those odds aren't good.

Firearms instructor or not, nothing really prepares you for something like that.

I agree with all this.

But, if the reports are correct that he drew then didn't shoot, and chose instead to tell them what to do, there's a lesson to be learned.

It is also worth mentioning that most people have an innate desire not to hurt people. In the moment, that can easily override the legitimate, lawful use of deadly force. Generally, people who carry are law abiding, decent human beings. I understand that it is a momentous decision to pull that trigger to shoot someone who may not be expecting it, even if they are an immediate threat.

Part of preparation is to prepare for that.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

That a firearms instructor missed is a bit disheartening to me. I understand **** bag low lifes missing but not a trained instructor.

Shooting a moving/armed/human target when all jacked up on adrenaline is a hell of a lot more difficult than shooting paper or steel on a static range.

But I thank him for it, because now I have a response the next time someone on INGO talks **** about a cop shooting at and missing a bad guy.

 

[T.Lex]

Shooting a moving/armed/human target when all jacked up on adrenaline is a hell of a lot more difficult than shooting paper or steel on a static range.

But I thank him for it, because now I have a response the next time someone on INGO talks **** about a cop shooting at and missing a bad guy.

Yeah, but what if Iggy Instructorson was a retired officer?

wah wah wah whaaaaaaah

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Yeah, but what if Iggy Instructorson was a retired officer?

wah wah wah whaaaaaaah

I guess we'll find out when his name is made public.

 

[T.Lex]

I guess we'll find out when his name is made public.

Are you implying his name is not Iggy Instructorson?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Are you implying his name is not Iggy Instructorson?

I was thinking Timmy Tactical.

 

[T.Lex]

Ok, Denny.

Anyway, has BBI incorporated this into his spreadsheet?

 

[Vigilant]

To all who think they live in a safe area most of the undesirables you see at the local wally are....well.....local.

My point exactly, we already have the undesireable locals, don't need to import more, kinda like Syrians?

 

[foszoe]

Questions from the curious.

T. Lex why do you view yelling "Freeze" as a bad tactical response? Are you advocating saying nothing at all? Are you saying just start shooting? (no need for getting into hypotheticals, I know we don't know much yet)

The reason I asked this is in one class the instructors advocated yelling "Gun!" once/as the gun is produced.

I never really bought into it excepting one possibility, in the home with absolute certainty of only one bad guy.

The only reason I thought that it might possibly work is something I learned in another class. Resetting the OODA loop of the bad guy.

Putting 2 and 2 together, which can be dangerous....

When the gun is drawn and pointed I am pretty much set in my OODA loop whereas yelling "Gun!" most likely would force a reset on the other guys part.


To others: He stopped the threat so why is that not considered a success?

 

[foszoe]

I was thinking Timmy Tactical.

The only way to be sure if it was an INGO member is if the shoot went down while he was holding a bacon double cheeseburger in one hand and shooting weak hand at the bad guys......

 

[T.Lex]

T. Lex why do you view yelling "Freeze" as a bad tactical response? Are you advocating saying nothing at all? Are you saying just start shooting? (no need for getting into hypotheticals, I know we don't know much yet)

The reason I asked this is in one class the instructors advocated yelling "Gun!" once/as the gun is produced.

I never really bought into it excepting one possibility, in the home with absolute certainty of only one bad guy.

The only reason I thought that it might possibly work is something I learned in another class. Resetting the OODA loop of the bad guy.

Putting 2 and 2 together, which can be dangerous....

When the gun is drawn and pointed I am pretty much set in my OODA loop whereas yelling "Gun!" most likely would force a reset on the other guys part.

So, I don't see how yelling anything is re-setting the other guy's (or guys') OODA loop. It is a huge help in their Orient phase. They now have a specific target to orient on.

I've seen here on INGO and experienced for myself, that it takes more than a second to draw and shoot at a stationary target, and that's when you know you WILL shoot, WHERE your target is, and roughly WHEN to start.

If Iggy draws and shoots, after identifying the Tangos with the guns, he can do so in let's say 2 seconds, with a decent chance of staying inside their OODA loops. As soon as they either notice the draw or (more likely) hear the first shot, they are already behind his loop.

If Iggy draws and yells "Anything!" then he's kinda committed to waiting to see what happens. Yell "Freeze" and then start shooting without waiting to see if it works? That doesn't make sense. If you don't wait to see if they freeze, then why did you yell that? How long - a couple seconds? Then their OODA loop catches up. Frankly, that's probably what happened here IMHO. He didn't really want to shoot them, especially by surprise. That's a cold hearted thing to do.

So instead, he gave them a chance at a fair fight.

Yelling "GUN!" and immediately shooting is better for the OODA loop competition, but then I'm still left wondering why. Tactically, it seems better to have them surprised, trying to figure out who just shot - one of their own, or a bystander - which would mess with their Observation/Decision phases. Yelling a warning is drawing attention BEFORE it is necessary. Plus, everyone can see there's at least 1 gun. In this case, apparently 3.

More than anything, I think the issue is the out-numbered aspect. If it was a lone shooter, then I could buy it a little easier. THAT guy might see that he's lost the draw and give up. More than 1, that's a risky proposition with potentially fatal consequences.

That's my assessment based on currently available information.

To others: He stopped the threat so why is that not considered a success?

Well, first he exponentially increased the threat of an innocent person getting hit by a miss, then the initial threats ran away.

Success was snatched from the jaws of defeat by what seems like luck.

 

[cosermann]

Interesting difference between WTHR (NBC) and Fox59 reporting.

WTHR headline, "Teen Robbery Suspects. . . "
Fox headline, "2 Adults, 3 Juveniles . . . "

Kudos to Fox. I am SO TIRED of 18 and 19 year old criminals being referred to as "teens" by the media, like they 13 yr old kids or something.

On "ordering the suspects to drop their weapons," yeah my first reaction was - dumb call.

This isn't the movies. Not required. And, when you're outnumbered it potentially puts you farther behind the 8-ball than you already are.

Will be interesting to see what, if any, further details are reported.