Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[iChokePeople]

Again, we do not know that it's limited to that. I'm not panty wadded by any means. It takes much more than a simple net conversation to accomplish that, but I do have high expectations for those claiming professionalism and then essentially representing me to everyone else.

Regardless, is it an appropriate response from someone representing you, essentially?

I'd rather someone representing me, as a gun owner, to be pro-freedom and choice. Not, "do as I say because only I'm the professional and my way is the right way."

I guess I didn't read/hear it the way you did. I see him offering an opinion, backed up by his experience, like... well, like most instructors do about one thing or another. I must have missed where he was advocating for taking away freedoms or choice. I probably should be more concerned about his clear desire to take away my freedom to use something other than a four count drawstroke, too, since he clearly advocates that...? I disagreed with a point he made in a DD promo video a while back, too -- I just didn't perceive it as a threat to my freedom to choose to do it my way.

Honestly, and hopefully no offense to Rob, I just don't think Rob Pincus is really a household name yet. If I wasn't an INGOer, I wouldn't have any idea who he is. Or James Yeager. Or...

 

[the1kidd03]

I guess I didn't read/hear it the way you did. I see him offering an opinion, backed up by his experience, like... well, like most instructors do about one thing or another. I must have missed where he was advocating for taking away freedoms or choice. I probably should be more concerned about his clear desire to take away my freedom to use something other than a four count drawstroke, too, since he clearly advocates that...? I disagreed with a point he made in a DD promo video a while back, too -- I just didn't perceive it as a threat to my freedom to choose to do it my way.

He's not directly threatening or advocating the removal or limitation of your rights. I never suggested such. Although, I would contest his opinion of OCers doing more harm than good.

Also, I'm more discussing from a perspective of his posts in this thread more so than the video itself. The video was rather professional, with exception to the inaccurate condescending stereotyping of OCers.

What he is doing by putting out such information is giving a point for gun grabbers to exploit. (See, even this professional instructor doesn't think you should have ability to open carry.)

We may understand that's not what he said, but can you say the same thing for those who try endlessly to strip our rights? We know all to well their misleading tactics, so why arm them further? Especially when someone of RP's status and reputation will be considered far more heavily than an average American when presented to those who can make a difference in regulations. It's imperative to understand that EVERY piece of communication goes through a series of perception and interpretation. The gun grabbers will choose to perceive what he's saying to fit their bias and interpret in a means to support that.

From a leadership standpoint, he's taken it upon himself to be the face; to be out in front of the pro-gun fight. An appropriate and effective leader doesn't draw division lines within his team, but rather builds unit cohesion. Something which will NOT be accomplished through ineffective stereotyping and condescension. In fact, quite the opposite.

I mean, we all refute being labeled the "psycho, wild west crazy man seeking to kill innocent people" by the gun grabbers. We know that's false stereotyping to perpetuate an opinion we do not agree with. Why is this different when it comes to a professional in the industry who's supposed to be on OUR side? I find it no more acceptable. Instead of creating a community of gun owners and advocates, he's creating one of CC owners vs OC owners. So I ask, if given the right situation how could cutting your support in half affect gun rights/laws positively? That is unless you wanted to push your opinion onto others like the gun grabbers. Do we wish to be naïve and believe the gun grabbers won't take it to that extent and use RP's posts to support them? I do not.

You don't arm the enemy in a fight. You try to remove their arms. From my perspective, removing their arms would be to get the proper education out there without the expectation of usurping or avoiding your rights but rather to use them appropriately. Some people obviously don't know HOW to use them appropriately. So, address that. Educate them in what IS or IS NOT appropriate rather than simply saying "don't exercise your rights." Don't advocate for their complete ignoring of the freedom we are supposed to have. Giving them arms would be to give them anything they can use against you. Such as idiots making antagonistic videos, NDs, etc.

 

[the1kidd03]

I don't think ANY gun trainer could be considered a "household" name though. However, they will be used as reference when debating gun rights with the masses. Yeager probably became the closest to after his rant and this mistake got exploited by the gun grabbers.

Although I would say Rob is closer to it. I've seen his interviews on national news broadcasts and such. I can't say I've seen much of that from any other instructor.

 

[iChokePeople]

From a leadership standpoint, he's taken it upon himself to be the face; to be out in front of the pro-gun fight. An appropriate and effective leader doesn't draw division lines within his team, but rather builds unit cohesion. Something which will NOT be accomplished through ineffective stereotyping and condescension. In fact, quite the opposite.

A leader can't address issues because it might offend someone? A leader can only pat on the back and build cohesiveness? Not much "leadership" involved in that, unless you tack "cheer" on the front.

 

[Rhoadmar]

A leader can't address issues because it might offend someone? A leader can only pat on the back and build cohesiveness? Not much "leadership" involved in that, unless you tack "cheer" on the front.

A leader should base his leadership "opinions" on facts. As Mr. Pincus has associated oc'rs with the attention whores on you tube and seems to hold firmly to that position, not a very effective leadership example. He should remember he's speaking to a group that is already very independent minded, on top of the fact that he's speaking in the sphere about which we are all rabidly independent minded about. Contrast esrice's posts in any thread with Mr. Pincus' posts. I have not seen any I'm the expert and your the peon condescension from esrice.

 

[the1kidd03]

A leader can't address issues because it might offend someone? A leader can only pat on the back and build cohesiveness? Not much "leadership" involved in that, unless you tack "cheer" on the front.

Not even close to what I said. A perfect example of communication going through a process of perception and interpretation.

One does not have to "pat on the back" to build cohesiveness and being "offensive" is not exactly the issue with expressing an opinion as a leader.

An effective leader can state their opinion appropriately without segregating their team into one side which has their leaders' support and one who seemingly does not. That is cohesiveness and that is leadership. The ability to state your opinion in such a way that still garners the same level of respect without hindering the unit's ability to work together.

The way he's responded in this thread he has done nothing but make legitimate OCers lose respect and trust for him and simply engrained those deeper for the CCers.

He could have simply stressed that he doesn't prefer to OC, but if you choose to this is what you should consider. Instead, he chooses to compare the responsible OCers to that of those they equally do not like based on assumptions from only a very few examples. While this is insulting to some, even more importantly it very clearly demonstrates that leaders' lack of understanding of the topic, his people, and an obvious bias and willingness to judge and control based on that. All subconscious expectations of people who seek to follow or support. Do you like taking orders from the least trustworthy, most idiotic, etc., etc. person at your place of employment? Would you want to work for and support someone who paid no attention to your ideas for the company or regard to your opinions? Of course not. It is very closely related to the totalitarian style of leadership which ultimately does not work efficiently in the individualist culture of the US.

 

[iChokePeople]

A leader should base his leadership "opinions" on facts. As Mr. Pincus has associated oc'rs with the attention whores on you tube and seems to hold firmly to that position, not a very effective leadership example. He should remember he's speaking to a group that is already very independent minded, on top of the fact that he's speaking in the sphere about which we are all rabidly independent minded about. Contrast esrice's posts in any thread with Mr. Pincus' posts. I have not seen any I'm the expert and your the peon condescension from esrice.

I'm hit and miss with you. I think a leader can and should have opinions and voice them, even if some people won't like them. I don't personally see Mr. Pincus as our/my leader, so don't feel any pressure to FOLLOW his advice or blindly accept his version of truth, but it's fine that he has strong opinions and voices them.

I didn't take from his comments that he thinks all OC'ers are attention whores, but maybe I just missed that. I'm clearly not as sensitive as many and sometimes miss things like that.

I don't think he should hide his opinion simply because ATM's rabid minions will be upset or dogpile him. I totally agree that he went over the top with a few of his statements here in the thread, but I cut him a little slack because he was being minion-piled.

 

[the1kidd03]

I'm hit and miss with you. I think a leader can and should have opinions and voice them, even if some people won't like them. I don't personally see Mr. Pincus as our/my leader, so don't feel any pressure to FOLLOW his advice or blindly accept his version of truth, but it's fine that he has strong opinions and voices them.

I didn't take from his comments that he thinks all OC'ers are attention whores, but maybe I just missed that. I'm clearly not as sensitive as many and sometimes miss things like that.

I don't think he should hide his opinion simply because ATM's rabid minions will be upset or dogpile him. I totally agree that he went over the top with a few of his statements here in the thread, but I cut him a little slack because he was being minion-piled.

He is not "our leader" in the typical sense of the term whereby he gives orders and you must follow. He is our leader in the sense that it is his opinions and expression of which that are going to reach the greater number of the masses; far greater than anyone of ours. That can have HUGE effects on such a "touchy" subject as gun rights in this country. Therefore, he is our leader because he is essentially our "face" to the rest of the world/country. The same is true for everyone who puts themselves out in the light and claims the "professional" title. With claiming that title, everyone else who's not part of your group looks to THEM for the answers. Making them a leader.

Personally, I have not been offended by what he has said. Like you, I really don't care what he believes. Based on my studies and research however, I know what kind of effects a person in his position can have on the rest of us. I like having the ability to choose for myself.

I do find it funny how you're drawing the conclusion that anyone who defend their liberty to choose for themselves is instantly associated with another member who does the same, but has maybe been here longer.

 

[iChokePeople]

An effective leader can state their opinion appropriately without segregating their team into one side which has their leaders' support and one who seemingly does not. That is cohesiveness and that is leadership. The ability to state your opinion in such a way that still garners the same level of respect without hindering the unit's ability to work together.

First, I think you're casting him too much in the role of Battalion Commander/Company Commander, when in reality that's nowhere near the case. Second, there are many wannabe leaders out there who fail miserably because they spend too much time trying to avoid hurting anyone's feelings in our way too PC world rather than grabbing the bull by the horns and addressing what they see as problems. I still don't agree with your casting him as our leader, but to follow that line -- you never had a GREAT company gunny or who hurt someone's feelings or told someone something he didn't want to hear? Really?

While this is insulting to some, even more importantly it very clearly demonstrates that leaders' lack of understanding of the topic, his people, and an obvious bias and willingness to judge and control based on that. All subconscious expectations of people who seek to follow or support. Do you like taking orders from the least trustworthy, most idiotic, etc., etc. person at your place of employment? Would you want to work for and support someone who paid no attention to your ideas for the company or regard to your opinions? Of course not. It is very closely related to the totalitarian style of leadership which ultimately does not work efficiently in the individualist culture of the US.

Again, orders, "his people", etc, you lost me. I don't see where any of this fits. He's just some guy on the internet.

 

[iChokePeople]

He is not "our leader" in the typical sense of the term whereby he gives orders and you must follow. He is our leader in the sense that it is his opinions and expression of which that are going to reach the greater number of the masses; far greater than anyone of ours. That can have HUGE effects on such a "touchy" subject as gun rights in this country. Therefore, he is our leader because he is essentially our "face" to the rest of the world/country. The same is true for everyone who puts themselves out in the light and claims the "professional" title. With claiming that title, everyone else who's not part of your group looks to THEM for the answers. Making them a leader.

I think we have different ideas of the term "leader". "Spokesman" =/= leader, especially when it's just a de facto thing, rather than something on which a population SELECTED a spokesman (or leader...)

Personally, I have not been offended by what he has said. Like you, I really don't care what he believes. Based on my studies and research however, I know what kind of effects a person in his position can have on the rest of us. I like having the ability to choose for myself.

Agreed, I just don't see where his stating his opinion about it equates to taking your freedom to choose. I don't think he has that kind of influence.

I do find it funny how you're drawing the conclusion that anyone who defend their liberty to choose for themselves is instantly associated with another member who does the same, but has maybe been here longer.

Actually, I wouldn't have included YOU in the minions group. Some others, yes.

 

[the1kidd03]

First, I think you're casting him too much in the role of Battalion Commander/Company Commander, when in reality that's nowhere near the case. Second, there are many wannabe leaders out there who fail miserably because they spend too much time trying to avoid hurting anyone's feelings in our way too PC world rather than grabbing the bull by the horns and addressing what they see as problems. I still don't agree with your casting him as our leader, but to follow that line -- you never had a GREAT company gunny or who hurt someone's feelings or told someone something he didn't want to hear? Really?




Again, orders, "his people", etc, you lost me. I don't see where any of this fits. He's just some guy on the internet.

I assure you, I don't associate him with the a military style chain of command or leadership style by any means. The military and civilian/societal leadership are two COMPLETELY different animals, although you can have both good and bad leaders in either.

Again, you're associating leadership styles with being PC when in fact they have little to do with each other for effectiveness. Contrary to your statement, the business world has shown and is continuing to show us time after time that what you are describing as effective, is in fact not. It leads to high turnover rates, skill barrel scraping, and a huge lack of efficiency which ultimately eventually leads to businesses going under or selling out. The most successful of most large corporations right now would be categorized in your interpretation as very "PC" while those that are struggling the most are not. But again, being "politically correct" has little do with how they communicate with people.

An organization (a group of people who come together for common goals/purposes) are only as good as their weakest link. When that link happens to be one of the first ones in the chain, there tends to be a LOT of other links which seem to fall on their face although it's often at the fault of the one.

 

[MCgrease08]

I agree that OCing WITHOUT a retention holster is bad juju...especially if is behind you. I've seen a couple of times, people OCing IWB in the small of their back and with NO retention

I hate to admit that I have been guilty of this. I can think of at least two instances when I carried with my IWB holster exposed outside of my t-shirt, leaving the grip of the pistol visible and accessible with no retention (3 o'clock).

I do not currently own a holster for OWB carry, but have been shopping around for one. I do not generally OC but would like to have something I can use around the house.

If and when I OC in the future it will only be after finding a holster better suited for it... with a retention strap.

Good food for thought Denny347.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think we have different ideas of the term "leader". "Spokesman" =/= leader, especially when it's just a de facto thing, rather than something on which a population SELECTED a spokesman (or leader...)

Indeed, we are interpreting it differently. A "spokesman" may be a better term, but essentially even a spokesman is a leader in that he is in the public eye and expected to set appropriate examples for his team. This is also because as the spokesman, he is the one who interacts with the OPPOSING "team." They then view him as a leader because it is a subconscious expectation that he be exemplary in that side's beliefs.

Agreed, I just don't see where his stating his opinion about it equates to taking your freedom to choose. I don't think he has that kind of influence.

He would only not have that kind of influence because as we established earlier, he's not a "household" name. Because so much of our society has developed into one which hates guns it is unlikely that he ( or any other instructor) would become a household name. If they did, it would likely be due to some drastic way of aligning what they BELIEVE him to have said with their existing ideals. Again, the perception and interpretation thing coming in to play. For many in society today, it's not about what you actually said. It's about how they INTERPRET what you said or how it CAN BE interpreted. Stupid? Yes, but it's how it is. Yeager is a great example from his rant.

Actually, I wouldn't have included YOU in the minions group. Some others, yes.

I welcome his opinion. What I don't welcome is his falsely categorizing half of our "team" with disdain in public fashion. I think largely my disagreement with this whole thing has been HOW he chose to present his opinion more so than the opinion itself. I really don't care what he chooses to do, but don't bash others for making their choice. That mixed signal is what can get used against us.

 

[iChokePeople]

Again, you're associating leadership styles with being PC when in fact they have little to do with each other for effectiveness. Contrary to your statement, the business world has shown and is continuing to show us time after time that what you are describing as effective, is in fact not. It leads to high turnover rates, skill barrel scraping, and a huge lack of efficiency which ultimately eventually leads to businesses going under or selling out. The most successful of most large corporations right now would be categorized in your interpretation as very "PC" while those that are struggling the most are not.

Cite?

 

[the1kidd03]

Cite?

You'll have to be patient on that one. I can't remember all of the case studies I've done off the top of my head and all my material is at home.

 

[iChokePeople]

You'll have to be patient on that one. I can't remember all of the case studies I've done off the top of my head and all my material is at home.

OK, but remember that if you're throwing it out as fact, I'll be looking for something more than just YOUR conclusions.

 

[Spike_351]

My defense of open carry here over the years has certainly been consistent, but I do not consider it personal, more of a public educational service (which I admittedly enjoy).

I've studied the debate points and generally seek to expose and understand the real underlying motivations that drive some folks to openly voice their disdain for how someone else chooses to carry.

Ironically, if many of these folks had "concealed" their disdain or simply asked questions rather than spouting off about it, they wouldn't have ended up refuted, scrutinized and frustrated.


I do everything loudly. After all, I'm ATM "the OC guy!"

I hate to admit that I have been guilty of this. I can think of at least two instances when I carried with my IWB holster exposed outside of my t-shirt, leaving the grip of the pistol visible and accessible with no retention (3 o'clock).

I do not currently own a holster for OWB carry, but have been shopping around for one. I do not generally OC but would like to have something I can use around the house.

If and when I OC in the future it will only be after finding a holster better suited for it... with a retention strap.

Good food for thought Denny347.

if the holsters is IWB how do you know it has no retention?

 

[ATM]

Wait...


I have rabid minions?


Sweet!

 

[iChokePeople]

Wait...


I have rabid minions?


Sweet!

 

[MCgrease08]

if the holsters is IWB how do you know it has no retention?

I know because it is my holster . I use the N82 Tactical original tuckable. It does not have a retention strap and is basically a flexible fabric that holds the pistol in place. It is very comfortable and makes for an easy draw, but tends to collapse under the weight of the belt once the gun is removed.

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