Physical fitness of firearms instructors

[SmileDocHill]

Not a big deal to me, as long as they are not continually telling me to run a mile and then put five shots in a two- inch group at 25 yards, knowing they can't do it.

The wise folks have been there and done that. I don't really care if they STILL can do it, I'm there for their wisdom not the show.

I agree with Coach's assessment about 100%.

I take a class based on their resume, experience, knowledge and mindset. All that comes from their past and keeping current with information. Keeping current in your physical condition, however, can easily be affected by life beyond being a full time operator like having a family, full time job, past injuries, and life commitments beyond worrying about how others think they look.

 

[the1kidd03]

I pick Travis Haley because he's dreamy...

 

[the1kidd03]

Probably a bad time to admit that I am sitting in my little popup camper, eating poptarts with my son.

I really don't think about it. Depends on the class. My expectation is that an instructor be able to demonstrate what they are teaching.

Don't feel bad. My week's schedule screwed up my diet and routine all week long. Turned my "cheat day" into a cheat week, LOL.

 

[the1kidd03]

I agree with Kidd, except for the MMA/wrestler comparison. .

Yeah, it was more a reference to the "fake" heavily televised wrestling. Not so much the olympic style "real" wrestling. The Hollywood wrestlers tend to be more about size which can be a detriment in confrontation. Granted they likely still have more endurance than that of an average citizen, it still may or may not be good enough for a real situation.

 

[esrice]

I don't mean that in a harsh way so much as I do to simply point out that there are more reasons people get into guns than there are shades of gray.

Thanks for posting kidd. You make some excellent points.

Why do so many fit people feel they have to attack fat people for being fat? What does it matter to you?

While I have seen this happen, hopefully you didn't get that impression from this thread. I appreciate everyone's honest answers to the questions presented. As you can see, everyone has their own take on the issue.

You make some great points Coach.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I learned a lot from a guy who's legs were so jacked up I don't think he could stand back up from the prone without assistance. His lack of ability to demonstrate was more than made up for by his ability to teach and his wealth of knowledge.

As long as you aren't so out of shape you're out of breath giving me range instructions or I'm distracted by wondering where the nearest AED is, I don't put much thought into how fit you are.

 

[Manatee]

Never really thought about the body conformation of shooting instructors. Information imparted, personality and learning to see things in a new and different way are much more important. I'm not looking to become a Tier 1 operator. I know quite a bit about firearms and tactics, but I also know that there is a lot that I can learn if I listen to someone new.

Proviso: All of the above is null and void if you have a goatee like James Yeager. That sumb*tch is UGLY!. I'd have to take the course with my eyes closed.

 

[the1kidd03]

I agree a lot with your perspective here. But I would add some things from my perspective about your points as follows.

Looks do not equal fit. -ABSOLUTELY
Ability to run long distances is only one form of tough. -Yes, but it does increase endurance. Without that you have high hopes of ending the fight quickly. I prefer to avoid assumptions for when my life is not on the line personally.
Mental toughness and heart count more than anything else. -I refer to this as mindset and I agree that without it, you WILL fail. However, it is not the only piece to the equation. Capability is equally as important.
Shooting skills do not require fitness. -If one plans to stand in the open while being fired upon, I would agree. Otherwise cover may not always be by your side, you don't always see your oponent before they strike, and they aren't always immediately in front of you.
Colt is the one who made men equal. I can be fit and still not up to the task. -I don't think anyone is ever really "up to the task" but you don't always get to make the choice IME
There are a lot of pussies that can bench press 400 pounds. -Agreed
Fit does not mean they are a teacher -Agreed
Fit does not mean they know anything. -Agreed
I regularly beat people in pistol matches who are younger, more fit and better athletes than I. (what the hell does that mean?) -Likely that you're a better shot and more practiced in that "art." Regular practice at any specific skill increases speed, that is a common fact. I doubt those younger guys have the practice and years of experience under their belt that you do.
In my experience the tanned, well manicured, clean cut, dude with six pack abs is often not as tough as that scrappy little freckled soft looking dude. -Agreed, but what do you have against us "little freckled" fellas?
In my experience the little, strong, fit dude with some sort of syndrome can be picked up and discarded while eating a twinkie and flipping off his brother. -IME, size can play a big role in a fight IF the guy knows what to do with the little one once he gets ahold of him. However, most don't and they are more limited in maneuverability, which allows for easy escape. Done it more than once myself.

I don't pick firearms instructors because of what they look like but for the ability to teach, knowledge.
John Farnham is not fit but I would take a class from him.

Why do so many fit people feel they have to attack fat people for being fat? What does it matter to you?

Closing thought; I hate being fat but I am not about to diet or exercise. I gave that stuff up in 1992.

I'm not "attacking" fat people personally. They are free to make their choices in life and I have no quarrels with that. I do advocate for trying to get into better shape, but the choice is theirs. I'm certainly not in any sort of pristine shape like I was as recently as two years ago. In fact, I have HORRIBLE metabolism and put on weight FAST. When I got injured I LITERALLY ate nothing more than a serving of veggies and a piece of chicken twice a day, a serving of eggs, yogurt, and fruit for breakfast and I STILL put on a solid 5 lbs. because I was in this "robo-boot" thing and couldn't do any real working out. What slight fitness level I am able to keep now I have to work very hard at and I'm still not where I'd like to be by any means. This has been the case throughout my life. I wan't blessed with the genes that some were, but even if I were I would still strive for better. My personal philosophy is that there's always room for improvement and the second you stop reaching for something better is the second you stop getting better.

I've seen large men get winded fast and long before they were able to end the fight. I've seen them be limited in maneuverability by their size and not able to KEEP ahold of the smaller opponent to be able to do any sufficient damage, assuming they knew how to cause any if they kept ahold. My only point is that the will to win is by no means the only part of the path to victory. Capability is equally as important.

 

[HICKMAN]

Two fats guys introduced me to defensive handguns, I have nothing but high praise for both of them.

The other instructor everyone loves or hates helped ME get motivated to get in better shape for MYSELF.

 

[Gabriel]

My qualification on this subject:


Why do so many fit people feel they have to attack fat people for being fat? What does it matter to you?

My intent was not to pick on anyone that considers themselves fat. I will elaborate slightly...

First off, I wrote my post with several instructors in mind that irritate me to no end (none of them are instructors here on INGO), so I tend to get a little more harsh when I consider them when I'm posting.

Second, when I say fat I'm not really thinking in terms of body size alone. I mean someone who is big because of pure laziness and is completely out of shape. I'm not speaking of bigger individuals that may seem out of shape, but could put the hurt on you given the opportunity. I work out with a guy that looks like he couldn't run ten feet, but that isn't the case at all.

Third, I also do not mean anyone that is a bit older and simply is not as thin or in shape as they used to be when they were younger. Everyone knows it's harder to stay fit the older you get (I'm getting to the age where that is becoming evident). I know some out of shape older gentlemen that have forgotten more about shooting and tactics than I will ever know.

This thread was simply about whether the physical fitness of an instructor plays a part in your decision to take a class with them. My answer is yes. You don't have to be super fit or thin, but if you are teaching advanced tactics type classes and can barely walk into the class room without breaking a sweat you are going to have to do a lot of work to gain my confidence and trust.

 

[HICKMAN]

Here's what p*sses me off about threads like this.

Some brand new gunowner might have heard about INGO and come here and seen this thread while looking for training.

He then might do some research on one of the training companies and come across some video of the various trainers teaching a basic handgun class.

He might then rule out taking a class with that company because of biases of topics like this thread and an article recently posted on another gun blog.

That person would then miss out on training with the 8th wonder of the world and one of my favorite people to go to Applebee's with.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think a better question here is: Assuming all else to be equal (ability to teach, level of knowledge, etc.) would you or would you NOT have a higher level of trust and confidence in an instructor who is "combat fit" vs one who is not?

I'd guess that nobody would say no. Therefore, does it not reason to stand that fitness level IS, to some degree, an important factor for a professional (just not necessarily THE most important?)

 

[the1kidd03]

Here's what p*sses me off about threads like this.

Some brand new gunowner might have heard about INGO and come here and seen this thread while looking for training.

He then might do some research on one of the training companies and come across some video of the various trainers teaching a basic handgun class.

He might then rule out taking a class with that company because of biases of topics like this thread and an article recently posted on another gun blog.

That person would then miss out on training with the 8th wonder of the world and one of my favorite people to go to Applebee's with.

That is the nature of the free market. Each person markets their products and they are as much a part of "their product" as anything else. When there are options, it demands higher expectations of the provider. If they are unwilling to match those expectations, they will not last.

I don't think anyone could come to this site and be deterred from training with most of the instructors here, much less training in general. In general, consumer expectations don't change but it's up to the business to market themselves and their product.

 

[cedartop]

I know it has been a few months since I have seen you Coach, but I don't believe you are 300 pounds.

 

[esrice]

Some brand new gunowner might have heard about INGO and come here and seen this thread while looking for training.

He then might do some research on one of the training companies and come across some video of the various trainers teaching a basic handgun class.

He might then rule out taking a class with that company because of biases of topics like this thread and an article recently posted on another gun blog.

That person would then miss out on training with the 8th wonder of the world and one of my favorite people to go to Applebee's with.

I suppose that's certainly possible but I think it's a bit of a stretch. If a noob to firearms training did all of their research from this one thread then they probably have bigger issues keeping them down. Personally I don't think we should censor the topics we talk about here based on what a training noob might misinterpret. This is a survey, not a compelling argument. I'm curious what INGOers think.

From the posted responses I'm getting that even folks who think fitness is very important still don't think it's the only important thing, and that there are many other factors involved. And some don't even consider it a deciding factor at all.

At any rate, I now want Applebees.

 

[the1kidd03]

I suppose that's certainly possible but I think it's a bit of a stretch. If a noob to firearms training did all of their research from this one thread then they probably have bigger issues keeping them down. Personally I don't think we should censor the topics we talk about here based on what a training noob might misinterpret. This is a survey, not a compelling argument. I'm curious what INGOers think.

From the posted responses I'm getting that even folks who think fitness is very important still don't think it's the only important thing, and that there are many other factors involved. And some don't even consider it a deciding factor at all.

At any rate, I now want Applebees.

Let's OC at Applebees and S-Bucks for dessert

 

[Gabriel]

Here's what p*sses me off about threads like this.

Some brand new gunowner might have heard about INGO and come here and seen this thread while looking for training.

He then might do some research on one of the training companies and come across some video of the various trainers teaching a basic handgun class.

He might then rule out taking a class with that company because of biases of topics like this thread and an article recently posted on another gun blog.

That person would then miss out on training with the 8th wonder of the world and one of my favorite people to go to Applebee's with.

There's a difference between a basic handgun class and what I'm thinking of in regards to training.


...and I love me a Chicken Fajita Roll-up from Applebees.

 

[HICKMAN]

There's a difference between a basic handgun class and what I'm thinking of in regards to training.

I know there's a difference, but the subject is firearms instructor, not drill instructor nor advanced tactical ninja instructor.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a candidate to teach a Rob Pincus Fit Shot because I wouldn't fit the role. However, I can comfortably teach Basic Pistol to a new shooter.

As long as the instructor can teach the class he's instructing, I have no problem.

Again, I would not workout with a fat personal trainer.

 

[cedartop]

There's a difference between a basic handgun class and what I'm thinking of in regards to training.


...and I love me a Chicken Fajita Roll-up from Applebees.

Right, so let me give this more than my previous drive by posting. While everyone is hemming and hawing because it appears they may have offended someone, let me see if I actually can.

No one suggested someones weight has anything to do with their shooting ability. Let me use Coach as an example. One, because he has injected himself into this, and two, I have met him, taken a class from him, and I like him. Coach weighs significantly more than I do. He can also outshoot me 7 days out of an eight day week. To offset this, hopefully there are some things I can do that he can't (otherwise my workouts might be a waste.). Can someone who weighs 100 pounds more than me still sprint 100 yards carrying a carbine and spare mags, then pull themselves over an obstacle and still shoot and fight? Does it matter? That is up to the individual. To me I try to keep my training as all inclusive as possible, fitness plays a roll in that.

So, that being said, does this mean I wouldn't train with Coach? Absolutely not. I went to him because he knew what I wanted to learn, and he had an excellent reputation here from PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TOOK CLASSES FROM HIM. Now, lets say Coach is an ex-Delta guy who make his bone on being a badass, but it looks like the only fight he has been in was to get to the front of the donut counter. Am I going to take a class from him then? Probably not. In Oct. I will be taking a Dynamic Vehicle Tactics class from one of the myriad of ex-Delta guys that are out there. For me, for this class, it is important that this guy is in great shape, and he is. If he was the aforementioned guy, and rolling out of a vehicle actually means rolling out, and then waiting while he gets to his feet, I will probably not be paying big bucks to go. I am not going to pay $600 for two days just to hang out with someone no matter how cool they are, or were. Well, not a guy anyway. I probably would pay that just to hang out for two days with Kate Upton.

So as usual it depends. There are people I am familiar enough with that it wouldn't matter if they looked like Jabba the Hut, I know they have the skills to teach me what I want to know, but if I didn't know that about them, how they looked would affect my decision. It is mostly a minor thing though, from what I have seen there are about four things that help a first time student to decide where they might go;

1) Marketing
2) Reputation
3) Convenience
4) Cost.

Those last two seem to be especially prevalent here.

 

[esrice]

Mike I think that is my new favorite post of yours! hahaha

ETA: Maybe that's because it was #2,100.