Open Carry Incident - Vincennes

[SteveM4A1]

And here come the insults. CM, I am glad that you did say that although you don't agree with what they did, or the whole long carrying of firearms, that you would defend it. That says a lot. I know you stated your question toward 88GT, but I would like to share my thoughts on it. It comes down to conditioning those who do not see guns except in entertainment on tv and such. I remember the first time I saw two gay men kissing, I was appalled. Now when I see this, it doesn't bother me one bit, and I think to myself, good for them.

 

[88GT]

If you see me as a hypocrite then I am sorry. I am not. I have spent my time as you have on the front lines for one cause or another. I grew up in an age of protest. That said, you are in the right to have your opinion of me even if it is wrong and it is.

You claim to support the free exercise of our rights, and in the same breath think it's okay for these rights to be prohibited. How is that not hypocritical?

I never said it was not within their rights.

I know this. This is not what I take issue with. I take issue with the fact that rather than defend his right to do it, you condemn him for it by arguing that it's foolish, and tacitly support the status quo that LE can prohibit a man from exercising a legal behavior. You have spend far more time condemning the long gun carrier than the LE response or the fact that a legal behavior is de facto illegal.

I just said it was not well thought out as to the big picture. It may have been planned just for what it was.

If not rocking the boat is your end goal, you are correct. I have a different goal in mind.

There are ways of effecting change that do not involve something like what these fellas did right wrong or indifferent.

Name one. This will be the second time I've asked this question.

I still believe they were looking for the response they received and they got it.

And they may have been. I don't see how that is relevant to the issues I am addressing.

Question....how does this action further our cause.

What cause? You and several others have said that carrying a long gun is legal. What cause could the long gun carrier possibly be trying to further if the action he is taking is already legal?

It is a fair question and as you have pounded on my opinion I will wait for your answer.

On the topic of fair questions still waiting for an answer: how about this one--how am I free to exercise my rights if the legal behavior I want to exercise is prohibited by LE every time I try to do it? I've only asked about half a dozen times in this thread already and nobody on your side of the discussion seems to want to address this glaring fact.

 

[Birds Away]

Look at the pot call the kettle black. We all know what award you have earned....and Ill give you a clue, it doesnt have any pretty colors on a ribbon and starts with a "D" and ends with a "D"..."It aint Richard".

Dude, relax. We don't want to lose you as collateral damage to the banhammer.

 

[88GT]

I agree with her most times and she does put things in a certain perspective but that I am a hypocrite is not that truth. I will not use the ignore button because in and adult conversation we all put something into it.
My opinion is based on lifes experiences. That many believe as they do just means they have not been rung out through the system and still have ideals. Due to this I avoid confrontation with LEO as it is a stressful/expensive situation as I do not play well with others and tend to hurt those who pi$$ me off. There are good reasons for most of my actions/opinions. Been there, done that and do not want to go there anymore....ever.

That may be the single most insulting thing you have ever said on this forum.

That everybody would be so quick to accept the chains but for the fact they haven't actually had to wear them. Unbelievable.

 

[rhino]

Wow.

 

[printcraft]

 

[churchmouse]

That may be the single most insulting thing you have ever said on this forum.

That everybody would be so quick to accept the chains but for the fact they haven't actually had to wear them. Unbelievable.

And again you completely miss my point. How in the hell is my opinion insulting.

I know you are active in the 2A cause. I respect and applaud that fact. I have seen you on TV and you are on the front lines so I take what you say with a grain of salt. You have the right to be visceral in your opinion.
That I insulted anyone is so far out in left field it is gone from sight. You are getting sensitive for no reason. My statement was to explain my approach to this and how I see some who still think the world is a fair place. You are doing exactly what you are calling others out on.

I am approaching this through education/discussion/putting people out there with the right info. It is having an effect. We have as a group brought many to the range that would have never considered it a year or more ago. It is working with no LE interactions. No scenes or frightened sheeple. I have spent untold amounts on ammo and usage of my guns and time.

Having been smashed by the system you are railing against I am lucky to have my rights and will do all I can to keep them. If that means I avoid confronting LE it is for the best. I will not put up with any crap from anyone for any reason. I seem to be a lot like you but approach issues in a manner that works for me. My wife grew weary of bailing me out long ago so knowing my temperament I walk a path that is safe for me and her. Is that something you can understand. I am no hypocrite 88. I am the person that would risk all in defense of those who are weak. I have and paid a price for it. No chains or shackles as you so eloquently state, just smarter now.
I can think of no other way to explain it so there it is. We do our part quietly and efficiently. If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes I have been mistaken about you. I hope I am wrong.

Again, to those of you who march in support of us and the cause...I thank you. For those who work behind the scenes....we are doing our part as well.

 

[Hammerhead]

I was going to comment yesterday when this thread was 3 pages long. I didn't have time and now it's ten. Boom.


Anyway, I see two topics that I'd like to address.

One - The response of the LEOs and the interaction.

The LEOs were wrong. Point blank. (no pun intended) Their response was lousy at best, and dangerous at worst. And 88GT is right that they were trampling on legal actions due to fear. The initial reporter's fear, their fear, a whole lot of fear being used as motivation. So they did what they thought best, intimidation, force, and threats. Sad.

The interaction then by the OP and his friends should have been nothing more than "Am I being detained, am I free to go?" -2 points for giving up their DLs for no good reason. Especially your friend with the AR. Don't talk to cops.

"Who's got the AR?" Who gives a flying fornication? Go back to eating your burger. I'm going to say no more as I'm going to get mad and start saying things I shouldn't.

Two - The carry of a long gun.

I have been an advocate for some time about the carry of a long gun by everyone. Perfectly legal behavior that should be common practice. "But, but, but, it's not smart." No, what's not smart is improper carry. Do you know how much someone else being offended bothers me? Exactly squat. I don't live my life concerned by other people's irrational actions, fears, and reactions.

"I aim to misbehave."

 

[churchmouse]

And here come the insults. CM, I am glad that you did say that although you don't agree with what they did, or the whole long carrying of firearms, that you would defend it. That says a lot. I know you stated your question toward 88GT, but I would like to share my thoughts on it. It comes down to conditioning those who do not see guns except in entertainment on tv and such. I remember the first time I saw two gay men kissing, I was appalled. Now when I see this, it doesn't bother me one bit, and I think to myself, good for them.

Thank you for your response and I do understand that. It makes sense in a way but we are not going to get any good response from Mall cops in this climate. JMHO.

 

[Gluemanz28]

I'm pretty sure nobody is winning or loosing here. But thank you for the laugh anyway

 

[Kutnupe14]

I was going to comment yesterday when this thread was 3 pages long. I didn't have time and now it's ten. Boom.


Anyway, I see two topics that I'd like to address.

One - The response of the LEOs and the interaction.

The LEOs were wrong. Point blank. (no pun intended) Their response was lousy at best, and dangerous at worst. And 88GT is right that they were trampling on legal actions due to fear. The initial reporter's fear, their fear, a whole lot of fear being used as motivation. So they did what they thought best, intimidation, force, and threats. Sad.

The interaction then by the OP and his friends should have been nothing more than "Am I being detained, am I free to go?" -2 points for giving up their DLs for no good reason. Especially your friend with the AR. Don't talk to cops.

"Who's got the AR?" Who gives a flying fornication? Go back to eating your burger. I'm going to say no more as I'm going to get mad and start saying things I shouldn't.

Two - The carry of a long gun.

I have been an advocate for some time about the carry of a long gun by everyone. Perfectly legal behavior that should be common practice. "But, but, but, it's not smart." No, what's not smart is improper carry. Do you know how much someone else being offended bothers me? Exactly squat. I don't live my life concerned by other people's irrational actions, fears, and reactions.

"I aim to misbehave."

While I know, that the carrying of long guns is perfectly legal, do you REALLY think it should be a common practice? Can you explain the logic? Had there ever been a time that the open carrying of long guns has been a common practice, in America? And when I say "common," I mean displayed openly in public society, not some frontiersman toiling on his property in early America.

 

[Harleyrider_50]

........... Foty pages,LOL!........

 

[SteveM4A1]

........... Foty pages,LOL!........

psshh only 10 for me! change your settings nub

 

[rhino]

While I know, that the carrying of long guns is perfectly legal, do you REALLY think it should be a common practice? Can you explain the logic? Had there ever been a time that the open carrying of long guns has been a common practice, in America? And when I say "common," I mean displayed openly in public society, not some frontiersman toiling on his property in early America.

Why not?

If someone doesn't mind the burden (both physical as well as social), why not? The only way it will become common is for people to do it.

 

[Rhoadmar]

While I know, that the carrying of long guns is perfectly legal, do you REALLY think it should be a common practice? Can you explain the logic? Had there ever been a time that the open carrying of long guns has been a common practice, in America? And when I say "common," I mean displayed openly in public society, not some frontiersman toiling on his property in early America.

What about some frontiersman riding into town to pick up supplies? Leave your long gun with your horse or wagon? Carry it into store to keep it safe would be my guess.

 

[Denny347]

It's a fringe behavior. Perfectly legal, but infinitesimally small number of people doing it. In order to get "the sheep" used to the sight, I think they should make sure they walk around the nearest elementary school (staying on public sidewalks of course) to get the message out that this is legal behavior. I mean if your going to be an attention whore, do it right.

 

[actaeon277]

While I know, that the carrying of long guns is perfectly legal, do you REALLY think it should be a common practice? Can you explain the logic? Had there ever been a time that the open carrying of long guns has been a common practice, in America? And when I say "common," I mean displayed openly in public society, not some frontiersman toiling on his property in early America.

It used to be common to only see persons of one ethic group.
Does that mean we should revert back to that?

 

[JettaKnight]

This whole thread smacks of a Jerry Springer episode.

KW comes here and brags about being harassed for toting an AR at McD's, half the audience applauds and half boos.
[commercial break]
Then we here about KW's sordid past runs with the law and how he thinks his problems are not of his own making.
[commercial break]
Then all heck breaks loose with those on stage yelling, "This is 'Merica! I'll do what I want." and "You can't tell me how to act!"


I want to hear why all those thinking OC an AR15 is such a great idea and, KW is a true patriot explain why they aren't doing the same thing every day?

If you jump in the tiger pit at the zoo, don't complain the tiger violating your rights when you get mauled.

 

[JettaKnight]

It used to be common to only see persons of one ethic group.
Does that mean we should revert back to that?

I know it's October and near Halloween, but you straw-man argument is pathetic.

 

[88GT]

And again you completely miss my point. How in the hell is my opinion insulting.

By implying that it is a naivete of experience that enables people like me to remain focused on the "ideal." You insinuated that had we been unlucky enough to feel the boot on our neck, we wouldn't be so quick to support fighting for our rights, that we would be gratefully happy for the precious few that we have, and that we would (I'll go so far as to say you think we should) sacrifice our full liberties for the sake of allowing other to let us keep a few.

I know you are active in the 2A cause. I respect and applaud that fact. I have seen you on TV and you are on the front lines so I take what you say with a grain of salt. You have the right to be visceral in your opinion.

If I've been on television, it's been once, as an interviewee. And I would hardly say I am on the front lines. In fact, quite the opposite. There are far more people, here on INGO and elsewhere, who do more, so much more, than I. My contribution is rather minimal actually. I write letters, OC, and argue about it with friends and internet friends.

That I insulted anyone is so far out in left field it is gone from sight. You are getting sensitive for no reason. My statement was to explain my approach to this and how I see some who still think the world is a fair place. You are doing exactly what you are calling others out on.

No good reason? You have come out on the side of tyranny and I am not supposed to be sensitive that you would rather I shut up and be silent rather than right a wrong?

I'm calling others out for hypocritical positions on RKBA. I do not see myself as taking a hypocritical position on RKBA.

I am approaching this through education/discussion/putting people out there with the right info.

But only education, discussion, and info that meets your approval. Is there not potential to educate people that the carrying of a firearm is legal and without inherent criminal threat? LE's response does not reflect on the carrying of a long gun. It reflects on the maturity and civility of the responding LEOs.

It is having an effect. We have as a group brought many to the range that would have never considered it a year or more ago.

Bringing more gunowners into the fold is great. But it isn't changing the public perception. INGO is proof that being a gunowner doesn't mean someone supports freedom for gunowners.

It is working with no LE interactions. No scenes or frightened sheeple. I have spent untold amounts on ammo and usage of my guns and time.

How do you figure? Every long gun carrying event is met with demands by LE to cease and desist. And those are the positive encounters. The bad ones look like the one described in the OP...and worse. If it were working, the responses would be a lot different. As long as we continue to acquiesce to their demands to refrain from exercising our rights, there is ZERO pressure on LE to change.

Having been smashed by the system you are railing against I am lucky to have my rights and will do all I can to keep them. If that means I avoid confronting LE it is for the best. I will not put up with any crap from anyone for any reason. I seem to be a lot like you but approach issues in a manner that works for me. My wife grew weary of bailing me out long ago so knowing my temperament I walk a path that is safe for me and her. Is that something you can understand. I am no hypocrite 88. I am the person that would risk all in defense of those who are weak. I have and paid a price for it. No chains or shackles as you so eloquently state, just smarter now.

Those are decisions for YOU. Yet you keep insisting that others should follow the same course. You're not the one being hassled. What do you care?

I can think of no other way to explain it so there it is. We do our part quietly and efficiently. If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes I have been mistaken about you. I hope I am wrong.

And I have explained why I believe your position is hypocritical. There is no reconciling a position of supporting the free exercise of legal rights and in the same breath advocating we not use them because it might make others upset.

While I know, that the carrying of long guns is perfectly legal, do you REALLY think it should be a common practice? Can you explain the logic? Had there ever been a time that the open carrying of long guns has been a common practice, in America? And when I say "common," I mean displayed openly in public society, not some frontiersman toiling on his property in early America.

Why shouldn't it be common practice? It should only be as common as the people who exercise it prefer to make it. It may be common here and not there. But the acceptance of a long gun in public should be common because the guns aren't the problem and fear of inanimate objects is the first step towards tyranny. When people aren't afraid, they don't feel the need to control.

It's a fringe behavior. Perfectly legal, but infinitesimally small number of people doing it. In order to get "the sheep" used to the sight, I think they should make sure they walk around the nearest elementary school (staying on public sidewalks of course) to get the message out that this is legal behavior. I mean if your going to be an attention whore, do it right.

Yes, we get it. You disapprove. Big surprise.