Open carrier is victim of strong arm robbery attempt

[Hayseed_40]

The Fobus holsters are the ones that are pure crap.

They are great for the range - nice and cheap. I would not feel comfortable about carrying in one - CC or OC.

 

[turnandshoot4]

5 year olds still count in the stats...

Darn.

I'll just have to stop OC'ing then. I definatly don't have what it takes to stop one of them.

 

[NDguido]

Sounds like a falsified story to me....

why?

 

[tdoom15]

Is that why they are now producing retention holsters for the military?

10 bucks says you OC with a blackhawk. You've lost it if you think everything the military provides is "quality", quite the opposite my friend. Do some research.

Serpas are banned by every reputable training class I've heard of, IDPA, FLETC, etc

Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster - M4Carbine.net Forums

You're in the unknowing minority if you think blackhawk makes quality stuff.

 

[NDguido]

In rereading the OP it says the EMU version of the story mentions the citizen who stepped up to help the victim secured the weapon and returned it to the guy. That means he wrestled it away or the perp dropped the piece and ran (unlikely if he already had the gun. Why not just start shooting?) I wonder what really happened. That's different than the linked story.

Both stories claim the 3rd party secured the gun. The campus story doesn't say when he returned the gun to the owner. It was likely after the incident. I don't see any important details in the stories that aren't consistent.

 

[NDguido]

I disagree...

Here's why:

1. The attacker had "The Element of Surprise" yet failed to complete his objective.

Assuming facts not in evidence. Unless you've read a different report than the two offered, we don't know if the BG actually succeeded in stealing the gun or not. Overall, yes.....the BG didn't end up with the gun, but most likely because of the 3rd party. Unless those that open carry are planning on carrying a surprise 3rd party with them, I'd say that this incident is, indeed, a negative example of OC.

2. Whether or not anyone ever had control of the gun NO ONE was shot, first last or otherwise.

Again, this is largely due to the presence of the 3rd party. I'm not sure how you can justify your response to KG1 that this incident isn't detrimental to the open carry cause. If the BG took the gun and then stroked out and died, still nobody was shot......still not a shining example for the open carry cause.

3. The often discounted third party proved helpful here which decreases the odds that the attacker was planning on shooting the victim with his stolen gun.

I have got to be missing something here. I cannot fathom how you've made this leap.

 

[mrortega]

Both stories claim the 3rd party secured the gun. The campus story doesn't say when he returned the gun to the owner. It was likely after the incident. I don't see any important details in the stories that aren't consistent.

Reread the link provided in the OP. Then read the statement below that put out by EMU. The linked story just says a third party helped the victim retain his gun. The EMU statement says the third party returned the gun to the victim. I don't see any consistency between the two. Was the gun successfully grabbed and snatched free or not?

 

[hoosierdoc]

Was this on campus? If so, people are darned close between classes and not surprising that someone could get so close. You can't stop everything with SA

 

[Titanium_Frost]

10 bucks says you OC with a blackhawk. You've lost it if you think everything the military provides is "quality", quite the opposite my friend. Do some research.

Serpas are banned by every reputable training class I've heard of, IDPA, FLETC, etc

Blackhawk Serpa CQC holster - M4Carbine.net Forums

You're in the unknowing minority if you think blackhawk makes quality stuff.

Where's my $10? I carry in a Raven or a Galco, ask mrortega. I have zero experience with blackhawk holsters I was just offering a dissenting opinion.

Assuming facts not in evidence. Unless you've read a different report than the two offered, we don't know if the BG actually succeeded in stealing the gun or not. Overall, yes.....the BG didn't end up with the gun, but most likely because of the 3rd party. Unless those that open carry are planning on carrying a surprise 3rd party with them, I'd say that this incident is, indeed, a negative example of OC.
Again, this is largely due to the presence of the 3rd party. I'm not sure how you can justify your response to KG1 that this incident isn't detrimental to the open carry cause. If the BG took the gun and then stroked out and died, still nobody was shot......still not a shining example for the open carry cause.

I have got to be missing something here. I cannot fathom how you've made this leap.

Negative for OC or walking down the sidewalk? Everything has risks and the absolute scarcity of these occurrences that antiOC drones spout about unendingly do not lend weight to their argument IMO.

Did you ever see a criminal that wants to have witnesses? No. I doubt someone would be gunned down while OCing solely so the criminal could get a gun, there are way easier ways to do it. Case in point...

 

[tdoom15]

Where's my $10? I carry in a Raven or a Galco, ask mrortega. I have zero experience with blackhawk holsters I was just offering a dissenting opinion.

Then do not speak of what you do not know. That's the problem with a lot of forums these days, people ignorantly spread misinformation and then a lot of other people regurgitate it and it becomes "truth".

Why would you give advice to someone on something you know nothing about? Especially when it's a crappy product that could be dangerous to someone.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Contrary to what you think I post - I do not think OC'ers are foolish. I do think there are follish OC'ers just like there are jack-legged CC'ers.

What I am poking at is this notion on here that
a) only CC'ers bash OC'ers and never the other way and
2) that whenever this comes up an OC'er will demand proof (in a duragatory way) and will not be satisfied if proof is shown

I have never said OC or CC is better as a whole. Personally, I CC and that is my choice. I thank the OC'ers for helping spread the awreness - I do not think it is a foolish way to carry if smartly done.

Of course you know all this from reading my posts, but want to say that an OC'er will "believe that no harm would come to us if we OC". I have typed the majority of my own posts but missed that in proofreading.

My apologies for being overly defensive.

 

[Hayseed_40]

My apologies for being overly defensive.

Not at all. You and I are strong-willed but we can always and

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Then do not speak of what you do not know. That's the problem with a lot of forums these days, people ignorantly spread misinformation and then a lot of other people regurgitate it and it becomes "truth".

Why would you give advice to someone on something you know nothing about? Especially when it's a crappy product that could be dangerous to someone.

I forget how serious this internet discussion stuff is...

I know plenty of people including several Marines who carried their M9s in a Serpa in actual combat and liked them so I trust them over you any day. Also if you re-read what I posted I did not even GIVE my opinion unlike yourself.

 

[Stschil]

Then do not speak of what you do not know. That's the problem with a lot of forums these days, people ignorantly spread misinformation and then a lot of other people regurgitate it and it becomes "truth".

Why would you give advice to someone on something you know nothing about? Especially when it's a crappy product that could be dangerous to someone.

Do you own one or are you just going from knowledge from the interwebz?

Hello Pot, meet Kettle....

You have your opinion, others have theirs. Doesn't make them wrong.

And as far as making judgements on info from the interwebz
Check post #9

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...2846-blackhawk_serpa_holsters.html#post935081

Many trainers do not allow them because their method of training itself causes the danger with the system.

People have shot themselves using all kinds of holsters. It's not just Blackhawks.

 

[ATM]

The "negative OC example" some people seem to crave is born of the fact that it is very easy to grab an exposed gun. Why, just look at it there... I could grab that easily!

Here's the problem. They don't get grabbed often. Even though it's right there and any 5-year old girl could do it... for the most part, they don't.

It seems that the arguments about needing to cover and secure with several retention devices and training for elbow-snap-knee-break-overhead-tosses are all based on the visible means of access rather than the frequency of attempts.

Of the sparingly few cases of attempted gun grabs from regular law abiding folks who openly carry, how many were even successful?

Why doesn't it happen more since it looks so darn easy?

Because if you attempt it, you have to be ready to die if you fail - and possibly even if you succeed.
You can't just snatch it, then give it back and mock the person for poor SA... they may be in the process of caving in your skull or jabbing you in the neck with a pen or knife or shooting you with their backup. Certainly the other law abiding folks will be noting your description to give to the police if they aren't helping to subdue you.

Criminals know this, why don't other gun owners?

 

[NDguido]

Where's my $10? I carry in a Raven or a Galco, ask mrortega. I have zero experience with blackhawk holsters I was just offering a dissenting opinion.



Negative for OC or walking down the sidewalk?

Negative for OC, being that the only thing the BG went for was the visable firearm.

Everything has risks and the absolute scarcity of these occurrences that antiOC drones spout about unendingly do not lend weight to their argument IMO.

I do NOT disagree with this statement. I am merely playing devil's advocate, by using this single example to give at least some credence to the argument against OC. In short, you can't dismiss every argument by saying there aren't enough happening. How many is enough?

Did you ever see a criminal that wants to have witnesses? No. I doubt someone would be gunned down while OCing solely so the criminal could get a gun, there are way easier ways to do it. Case in point...

Or, he could have eliminated all witnesses by shooting both of them. I don't give criminals any benefit of the doubt when it comes to respecting human life and taking the more efficient route. I've read about too many people being killed over nothing.

 

[Hop]

Geez, I've seen cops open carry. Do they have trouble with gun grabbing 5 year old girls? Do crooks target cops because they can take their guns or do most crooks slither back into the dark corner to await the weaker victim?

Where's that purple highlighter again?

I didn't mean to start a holster war in an OC thread but it does make for a lively conversation.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Negative for OC, being that the only thing the BG went for was the visable firearm.

I do NOT disagree with this statement. I am merely playing devil's advocate, by using this single example to give at least some credence to the argument against OC. In short, you can't dismiss every argument by saying there aren't enough happening. How many is enough?

Did you ever see a criminal that wants to have witnesses? No. I doubt someone would be gunned down while OCing solely so the criminal could get a gun, there are way easier ways to do it. Case in point...

You just can't use one poor example as evidence against a movement spanning coast to coast and thousands and thousands of participants.

Many OCers are using it as a political statement or protest and would gladly still be doing it even IF it created increased risk of attacks such as these.

I wish we had video of this, I wish we knew who the victim was, where he was at, his reputation locally, I wish we knew the attacker and more importantly what he was thinking and why he chose this person to attack. Without this knowledge you or I can only speculate- poorly based on insubstantial facts given. To make a judgment condemning or condoning a very personal action based on this is irresponsible.

Or, he could have eliminated all witnesses by shooting both of them. I don't give criminals any benefit of the doubt when it comes to respecting human life and taking the more efficient route. I've read about too many people being killed over nothing.[/QUOTE]

 

[Indy317]

Here's the problem. They don't get grabbed often. Even though it's right there and any 5-year old girl could do it... for the most part, they don't.

I think the issue isn't if they get grabbed now, or how often in the past, it will be how often will this happen in the future. There are three incidents I know about, over a multi-year period of time:
#1: Some quasi internet story about an OCer getting their gun taken, or being targeted. Not much out there.
#2: The Milwaukee, WI incident where the gun was taken, with help from the OCer in fact. This was mid-2010.
#3: This incident, almost two years after the Wisconsin incident.

So as it stands now, history says it isn't likely. However, if OCing becomes more and more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least two or three instances a year that make the news.

There are also indirect incidents that could arise. This will be OCers being followed, perhaps even to their home, that could be targeted for burglary later on. Or there could be a possibility of breaking into an OCers car, just to see if there is another gun, or maybe other firearms related stuff.

Flaunting a gun is flaunting money. People flaunt high dollar electronics, they sometimes become victims. People flaunt high end watches, they sometimes become victims. I don't think it is a stretch to think that some people who flaunt high end handguns will become victims. Actually, I already know this has happened. I know a guy who OCed a shotgun to his vehicle every morning, then OCed it back to his home after work. He wanted the neighborhood to know he was armed. So after a few weeks, he goes out to his car and what does he find..his trunk was busted open. Seems someone who saw him OCing the shotgun out to the trunk never was around to see him OC it back into his home.

 

[NDguido]

The "negative OC example" some people seem to crave is born of the fact that it is very easy to grab an exposed gun. Why, just look at it there... I could grab that easily!

Here's the problem. They don't get grabbed often. Even though it's right there and any 5-year old girl could do it... for the most part, they don't.

It seems that the arguments about needing to cover and secure with several retention devices and training for elbow-snap-knee-break-overhead-tosses are all based on the visible means of access rather than the frequency of attempts.

Of the sparingly few cases of attempted gun grabs from regular law abiding folks who openly carry, how many were even successful?

Why doesn't it happen more since it looks so darn easy?

Because if you attempt it, you have to be ready to die if you fail - and possibly even if you succeed.
You can't just snatch it, then give it back and mock the person for poor SA... they may be in the process of caving in your skull or jabbing you in the neck with a pen or knife or shooting you with their backup. Certainly the other law abiding folks will be noting your description to give to the police if they aren't helping to subdue you.

Criminals know this, why don't other gun owners?

I see only one problem with your post. This country, and certainly this forum is occupied by precious few trained carriers with the nerve and the ability to fend off an attact, let alone have the mental strength to think of drawing a second weapon, be it a back up gun or a pen or knife. No, I'd wager the majority of people occupying this site are daydreaming warrior wannabes whose physical abilities reside only in their minds and in this website where they've left imaginary tales of their adventures. Most probably carry because it is their only means of defending themselves BECAUSE of their lack of physical abilities, be it because of age or lack of training..........Criminals also know this. What I am saying is that if a BG did actually succeed in taking an opencarrier's weapon, my guess is that it is going to end badly for the victim in MOST cases.

This is not an argument against OC. I am all for it if that is how you want to carry. I have considered it myself at times. I just pray to God that people here aren't overestimating their abilities to react if things go south.

I find it humorous, and extraordinarily naive that people have mocked the victim's SA while knowing zero facts as to the method the BG used to approach him. I find it laughable that anybody here would assume they could have fared better given all of the unknowns.