OC at 4-H Fair. -1 Marshall County Reserve Officer

[Titanium_Frost]

An unfortunate incident. Thankfully you were tactful and well knowledged in Indiana law. Me, I don't carry open. My reason... if a purp sees me carrying a gun... I become the first target to shoot!

 

[eldirector]

No kidding.

 

[SirRealism]

First off, i oc and cc. Im not a oc hater. At a place like that, you know they dont want exposed weapons. So why complain when they ask you to leave? Common sense.

Who is "they", and where DO they want exposed weapons?

 

[The Spud]

...in a thong.

A thong ... made of BACON!!!

 

[LanceRobbins24]

An unfortunate incident. Thankfully you were tactful and well knowledged in Indiana law. Me, I don't carry open. My reason... if a purp sees me carrying a gun... I become the first target to shoot!

 

[Archbishop]

Mine used to say "I smacked my face on daddy's thing!" We had to have a brief talk after that.

My mind must be too dirty, cause this made me snicker.....
Course I could see one of my kids doing this to.

 

[Archbishop]

He asked you if you were with an agency. If you had been, would all the frightened masses who saw you and called it in now suddenly be calmed because the cop found out you were with an agency? That question, implying that if you were an LEO you could still OC and frighten everyone gives the lie to his supposed reason for questioning you in the first place.

As always, good point Dross.

 

[ATM]

...Me, I don't carry open. My reason... if a purp sees me carrying a gun... I become the first target to shoot!

You've been an INGO member for several years.

How have the realistic reasons escaped your notice all this time?


And no... the "element of surprise" is not where you should go next.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/37307-common_oc_cc_threadjack.html

 

[Hoosierdood]

First off, i oc and cc. Im not a oc hater. At a place like that, you know they dont want exposed weapons. So why complain when they ask you to leave? Common sense.


Second, i can care less about your silly negative rep. I wont lose any sleep tonight over it!

So, you have read through 31 pages of replies and you STILL don't get it? This has nothing to do with complaining that I was asked to leave. It has EVERYTHING to do with a serious lack of professionalism on the part of the Reserve officer, as well as a gross lack of knowledge of Indiana law. He even went as far as accusing me of intimidation, and then tried to intimidate me by threatening to have my license taken away - all in front of my family as we were doing nothing wrong. I suggest you go back and re-read this thread to see it for what it really is.

 

[Roadie]

An unfortunate incident. Thankfully you were tactful and well knowledged in Indiana law. Me, I don't carry open. My reason... if a purp sees me carrying a gun... I become the first target to shoot!

EDIT: Note to self, read ahead before responding lol

 

[Roadie]

Oooops, looks like I should have read ahead before I posted, heh

 

[Hammerhead]

 

[686 Shooter]

You've been an INGO member for several years.

How have the realistic reasons escaped your notice all this time?


And no... the "element of surprise" is not where you should go next.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/37307-common_oc_cc_threadjack.html

First off, I could care less if someone chooses to open carry, conceal carry, or not carry. The thing that confuses me is how most people that open carry can claim that the "element of surprise" is not effective if you don't know the circumstances of the "situation", It very well may work or it could fail, you will never know until the situation arises. And it is also possible that the BG could shoot everyone with a gun, you never know until it happens. Again, I'm not knocking anyone for OC, but it is not for everyone and it is not for every situation, common sense sometimes need to come in to play (and no, I didn't say that the OP didn't use common sense.). It's wonderful to teach the next generation our rights and it is wonderful that they can learn at such a young age, but it is unfortunate that the people that we were taught to respect as children ourselves, now have to be the bad guy in the example that we set. We also may want to look at the police officer's superiors for failure to properly train the people that are sworn to protect and serve.

 

[Roadie]

First off, I could care less if someone chooses to open carry, conceal carry, or not carry. The thing that confuses me is how most people that open carry can claim that the "element of surprise" is not effective if you don't know the circumstances of the "situation", It very well may work or it could fail, you will never know until the situation arises. And it is also possible that the BG could shoot everyone with a gun, you never know until it happens. Again, I'm not knocking anyone for OC, but it is not for everyone and it is not for every situation, common sense sometimes need to come in to play (and no, I didn't say that the OP didn't use common sense.). It's wonderful to teach the next generation our rights and it is wonderful that they can learn at such a young age, but it is unfortunate that the people that we were taught to respect as children ourselves, now have to be the bad guy in the example that we set. We also may want to look at the police officer's superiors for failure to properly train the people that are sworn to protect and serve.

Fact:
60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed.

40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

( Book: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Expanded Edition). By James D. Wright and Peter D. Rossi. Aldine De Gruyter,)

Evidence seems to suggest that the "bad guy will shoot everyone with a gun first!" thinking just isn't provable. I have only seen ONE such instance posted on INGO. To my mind, logic would dictate that with the stats above, and the lack of evidence that it actually happens that way, I can deduce that Open Carrying could actually be an advantage.

 

[thebishopp]

Evidence seems to suggest that the "bad guy will shoot everyone with a gun first!" thinking just isn't provable. I have only seen ONE such instance posted on INGO. To my mind, logic would dictate that with the stats above, and the lack of evidence that it actually happens that way, I can deduce that Open Carrying could actually be an advantage.

Yes the evidence is definitely in favor that a criminal will choose what he believes to be a "soft" target versus a "hard" target.

Is this always the case. Obviously not as there are exceptions to the rule.

The problem for some of us I believe (those that keep insisting CC is the better choice because a criminal will shoot everyone with a gun first) is that we are looking at it from a military/leo/tactical standpoint. We have already determined that our objective is the crime and as such we are looking at how we will accomplish that mission. The possibility of changing from a "hard" to "soft" target isn't being considered.

In the case of the average criminal they just do not think like that - that is fact. Again I am not saying this is 100 percent and you may run into the small percentage of criminal who is different.

What people need to be aware of is the risk for EITHER method of carry as well as being trained to deploy from both positions (among other things like situational awareness).

It's like those "self defense" instructors who would go around telling people that if they saw a person holding a knife a certain way then you could tell if they could really use a blade or not. Utter nonsense and ironically it was those "instructors" who were saying that, that didn't know what they were talking about. Taking a stance on either end of the spectrum is fallacy and tactically unsound.

Now as far as OC goes. I will say that if more people did it the better off it would be for everyone. Both "socially acceptable" wise as well as "crime deterrent" wise.

When you CC there is still the possibility that the criminal will "take a chance" thinking you were unarmed.

If a criminal walks into a business or even just down the street where dang near every where he looks he sees someone OCing he will, in all likelihood, reconsider what he may be planning on doing. After all it is highly unlikely that he is going to get away with a crime when there are dozens of people around him all "packing" visibly.

 

[ryknoll3]

First off, I could care less if someone chooses to open carry, conceal carry, or not carry. The thing that confuses me is how most people that open carry can claim that the "element of surprise" is not effective if you don't know the circumstances of the "situation", It very well may work or it could fail, you will never know until the situation arises. And it is also possible that the BG could shoot everyone with a gun, you never know until it happens. Again, I'm not knocking anyone for OC, but it is not for everyone and it is not for every situation, common sense sometimes need to come in to play (and no, I didn't say that the OP didn't use common sense.). It's wonderful to teach the next generation our rights and it is wonderful that they can learn at such a young age, but it is unfortunate that the people that we were taught to respect as children ourselves, now have to be the bad guy in the example that we set. We also may want to look at the police officer's superiors for failure to properly train the people that are sworn to protect and serve.

It IS unfortunate. It is unfortunate that those people we were taught to respect sometimes use their badge and the authority they were granted by the citizens of the locality they serve to push those citizens around and intimidate them because of their lack of knowledge of the law, or their desire to push their own agenda/opinions/beliefs on others.

There are pros and cons to both OC and CC. Everyone should just carry the way THEY feel comfortable and leave everyone else alone. I OC most of the time and have never had ANYONE comment/complain about my firearm. Yet, every day I come here and see someone criticize someone else for their choice to OC. We're our own worst enemies. The people that criticize OC'ers are like the FUDD's of 10-15 years ago. They're all for the right to keep and bear arms as long as it suits them. "Don't want them crazies associated with me! It's embarassing." Back then it was guys in plaid hunting get-ups with expensive over-unders and fancy deer rifles looking down their noses at those with "evil" black rifles. Now it's CC'ers who feel that they are morally superior because no one knows they have a firearm looking down their noses at those who choose to exercise their LEGAL right to OC and their legal right to expression. "You shouldn't OC. You might scare the sheep. You might offend a police officer. You might draw attention and scrutiny to the right to carry. You might not be able to dazzle a criminal by pulling your CC gun out of your hat like David Copperfield".

Can't we all just get along?!?

 

[686 Shooter]

Ok, using the OC logic, shouldn't we post signs on our cars and around our houses that read "I have a gun and I'm prepared to use it.", this should reduce the probability of a home invasion or a car jacking?

 

[ATM]

...The thing that confuses me is how most people that open carry can claim that the "element of surprise" is not effective if you don't know the circumstances of the "situation", It very well may work or it could fail, you will never know until the situation arises.

Surprise is not a defensive tactic or advantage - it is an offensive tactic and advantage.

Most who throw it out there as a primary reason to conceal do so without thought. When they try to defend that thought, it's almost always with a very narrowly tailored hypothetical scenario which depicts the "defender" as a mere bystander who gets to capitalize on some oversight of the criminal as he deals with the actual victim.
The "concealed bystander" defender then transitions into the role of aggressor against the criminal and gets to use the "element of surprise" as the offensive tactic and advantage that it is against the fool criminal who underestimated him on the sidelines.

I guess if that's how you think most crimes are going to happen, then it's a valid reason for you. Just make sure you consider all likely crimes and you being the selected victim before you give the notion undue weight.

 

[686 Shooter]

It IS unfortunate. It is unfortunate that those people we were taught to respect sometimes use their badge and the authority they were granted by the citizens of the locality they serve to push those citizens around and intimidate them because of their lack of knowledge of the law, or their desire to push their own agenda/opinions/beliefs on others.

There are pros and cons to both OC and CC. Everyone should just carry the way THEY feel comfortable and leave everyone else alone. I OC most of the time and have never had ANYONE comment/complain about my firearm. Yet, every day I come here and see someone criticize someone else for their choice to OC. We're our own worst enemies. The people that criticize OC'ers are like the FUDD's of 10-15 years ago. They're all for the right to keep and bear arms as long as it suits them. "Don't want them crazies associated with me! It's embarassing." Back then it was guys in plaid hunting get-ups with expensive over-unders and fancy deer rifles looking down their noses at those with "evil" black rifles. Now it's CC'ers who feel that they are morally superior because no one knows they have a firearm looking down their noses at those who choose to exercise their LEGAL right to OC and their legal right to expression. "You shouldn't OC. You might scare the sheep. You might offend a police officer. You might draw attention and scrutiny to the right to carry. You might not be able to dazzle a criminal by pulling your CC gun out of your hat like David Copperfield".

Can't we all just get along?!?

Again, isn't it possible that the officer was not educated by his superior that there had been a change in the law, and may not have been puposely abusing his power? He very well may have been a prick, but he also may not had been instructed as he should have been.

 

[rhino]

And no... the "element of surprise" is not where you should go next.

Does it matter that I was surprised (again)?