Obamacare: Say goodnight, Gracie...

[BugI02]

Trump and his administration to this point have only been able to demonstrate how incompetent and dangerous they can possibly be. The lack of transparency and alternative facts not only make us look like a joke are extremely dangerous given his huge ego. Trust me I know more than the generals. Or as President I know more than anybody.

The recent actions of the House Intelligent Commitee Chairman Nunes not only compromise his integrity but also make Trump and his campaign look even more guilty. No smoking gun yet but his actions were extremely inappropriate. You would think if not guilty of anything it would be in their best interest to conduct the investigation as open and above board as possible.

You hate Hillary but your willing to execuse Trump when in actuality there's no reason as Americans we should tolerate eithers actions as being acceptable for any reason.

Surely you are not naive enough to believe that the purpose of a congressional investigation is to get at the unvarnished truth, are you? Would you co-operate with the kangaroo court at your own show trial?

 

[Alpo]

Jamil:

+6 compared to what? What is your zero point? Kut started out at 100, I think. I really don't think it matters where you start. Is the man representing the world's largest superpower and beacon for liberty and the rights of all in the best possible light?

I think he has a failing grade in that regard. I know the "but, Obama" meme will start with that comment. I have said before that Obama turned out to be a mediocre president. He wasted his opportunity to be transformative. I think W E B DuBois would have shook his head in sadness to see the opportunity given to one of the "talented tenth" frittered away.

 

[jamil]

Rim shots abound this morning. I suppose that is funny is some cultures....like the group that voted for Trump because they enjoy fantasies of Eastern European women in leather with a foot on the couch in the West Wing. See Jamil for more info.

...but the reality is scarier. A blonde kneeling on the couch surrounded.

And see? This is what I'm talking about with intellectual honestly. Ridicule without legitimate criticism is usually just not that. What great truth has been revealed to you that Trump supporters necessarily are turned on by whats-her-name on the couch. And why invoke my persona in this? WTF did I do?

 

[Alpo]

Not a "rimshot".
Apparently, you and several had a difficult time telling the difference.
I did not tell you or them what to think.

As for not knowing I was talking about Mr. Sanders when I said "socialist", it's what he has called himself. That honesty at least puts him a step up from the thief.
But if people want socialism, and say how great it is, why are they not moving?
We were founded to get away from that. There is no wall keeping people in.

I'm not fond of socialism although, as I said, I can see that is the course the world is vectored on as population increases over the remainder of the century. Bernie is a good man with some very liberal ideas. He can be reasoned with, however.

 

[Alpo]

And see? This is what I'm talking about with intellectual honestly. Ridicule without legitimate criticism is usually just not that. What great truth has been revealed to you that Trump supporters necessarily are turned on by whats-her-name on the couch. And why invoke my persona in this? WTF did I do?

It is a matter of respect for the office. I don't know about your grandma, but my grandma would have slapped me silly if I sat on someone else's couch with my shoes on. Would anyone do that with the Queen of England? Or the Chinese Premier?

Just what gravitas does the presidency hold to you?

 

[jamil]

Jamil:

+6 compared to what? What is your zero point? Kut started out at 100, I think. I really don't think it matters where you start. Is the man representing the world's largest superpower and beacon for liberty and the rights of all in the best possible light?

I think he has a failing grade in that regard. I know the "but, Obama" meme will start with that comment. I have said before that Obama turned out to be a mediocre president. He wasted his opportunity to be transformative. I think W E B DuBois would have shook his head in sadness to see the opportunity given to one of the "talented tenth" frittered away.

I think I laid out my criteria and points somewhere. But here it is. I started at zero. that way, it's visually obvious where he stands relative to the start point. I give plus or minus ones, generally, but something big I might give a 2 or more. And I only rate it for things done or not done. For example, I really liked his earlier budget proposals, except for the extra military spending. That could use some trimming as well. Anyone who is too complicated to be audited shouldn't get even more money to waste. Anyway, Trump won't get points for just announcing a budget I like. He'll get the points, plus or minus, when he signs.

I don't tend to give points for tweets. But I think I did give a -1 not long ago for his phone tap tweet. I considered docking him for the tweet about the Freedom Caucus, but at most I could only -.5 him for that, but I don't like giving fractional points. I'm thinking about rounding it down to -1 and including how he handled the health care bill.

Trump racked up some early pluses with some of the executive actions he did. But he's been on a negative trend since at least the "phone tapping" bit. He keeps losing for another few weeks and he'll go negative.

 

[BugI02]

I suppose it is normal for a person to assume that they are fair-minded and even-handed. Those of us who are, perhaps, a little more honest with ourselves will recognize that that is not always the case and, in fact, may not be the norm.

Even so, it does creep into one's thoughts that people who do not agree with us must have something wrong with them. That either something is lacking in their lives or, perhaps, they were dropped on their head as a child. LOL

As I said, this place can be an echo chamber or opposing views can be heard...even though those opposing views are not widely held by the membership.

Yes, I think Trump is unfit for office. The latest polling data I've seen shows over 1/2 the country doesn't like what they see.

[This seems a bit vapid, which is not how I usually envision you. I hope this is just an inadvertent juxtaposition and not that you think Trump is unfit for office because his poll numbers are low]

So, was it I who was dropped on his head as a child, or was it thee?

*.*

 

[jamil]

It is a matter of respect for the office. I don't know about your grandma, but my grandma would have slapped me silly if I sat on someone else's couch with my shoes on. Would anyone do that with the Queen of England? Or the Chinese Premier?

Just what gravitas does the presidency hold to you?

Gravitas and Trump are mutually exclusive terms. I'll overlook some things to get the important things I want. When I made the decision to vote for Trump, I considered his persona, and decided that having at least a shot at a descent SCOTUS nominee is worth that price. I'd much rather have a guy like Pence in the office, not because I like Pence all that much, but he gets the weight of the job. He understands how a statesman carries him or herself. Trump doesn't even care. But the SCOTUS nominee was more important to me than that. And I feel pretty good about Gorsuch being the guy I wanted.

 

[BugI02]

Jamil(*nhrn) I think Pence is the embodiment of the concern you had (with respect to the ACA replacement legislation) of losing 'tuesday morning caucus' members by trying to woo the FC. I don't think Pence has what it takes to motivate the Trumpers. He's too pastel, too much of an apparatchik. Like a more evangelical Kasich.

I think folks who think if Pence got the big chair he could really get things done are kidding themselves, in that he would alienate more existing support than could be compensated for by new support he brings on board

 

[T.Lex]

I think folks who think if Pence got the big chair he could really get things done are kidding themselves, in that he would alienate more existing support than could be compensated for by new support he brings on board

I think this is the disconnect.

Trump supporters can't really help get anything done in Congress. That's something Trump still doesn't understand.

Getting things done in Congress requires a politician, and a good one, at that. The horse-trading there uses different levers than in the business world. Each congressperson is a king of their own fiefdom (allegorically). They are not beholden to anyone but their own understanding of their own constituency.

Pence is MUCH better at that than Trump will ever be.

I agree that those are the very reasons Trump supporters found him distasteful.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Apparently the Freedom Caucus reached out to try and find common ground to move forward on health care.

GOP NY Rep Chris Collins says "The Tuesday Group will never meet with the Freedom Caucus."

Now other Freedom Caucus members are responding to Trump labeling them as the opposition.

Freedom Caucus stood with you when others ran. Remember who your real friends are. We're trying to help you succeed.

It didn't take long for the swamp to drain Donald Trump. No shame, Mr. President. Almost everyone succumbs to the DC Establishment.

 

[BugI02]

Conceded. But Pence jumped aboard the USS America First, he wasn't shanghai'd. What levers would he have to move those congresspersons? He certainly wouldn't be 1/10 as good as Trump at rallying the faithful to pressure errant lawmakers. I fear his only leverage would be dealmaking, back-scratching and log rolling. Personally, I've had quite enough of that

 

[Twangbanger]

It is a matter of respect for the office. I don't know about your grandma, but my grandma would have slapped me silly if I sat on someone else's couch with my shoes on....

Just what gravitas does the presidency hold to you?

Trump is indeed one odd bird, but talking about gravitas and respect for the office...did you happen to notice the semen stains left on that couch by a previous occupant?

Speaking of family members holding roles, do you remember when "your boy" put his wife in charge of re-organizing a seventh of the US economy? ("Two for the price of one!")

I knew folks like you, back then:

"His wife is a smart, educated lady...I really hope she'll make some good changes."

"That Ken Starr stuff is a buncha politicized crap designed to overturn the election...what a person does in their private life is between him and his wife."

Uh...uh-huh...yeah sure you didn't.

Trump is a dumpster fire in some ways, but I find it interesting what people can tolerate from a leader with so-called "noble manners" (ie, "thinks like me").

 

[churchmouse]

Howdy fellas.
Looks like we need a breather.
Or Nerf mitts and bats.

Yes, This is an in thread.

 

[Thor]

You prefer an echo chamber? Easy enough. Not much fun though, is it?

You tell us.

 

[Thor]

Howdy fellas.
Looks like we need a breather.
Or Nerf mitts and bats.

Yes, This is an in thread.

Good point.

 

[T.Lex]

Conceded. But Pence jumped aboard the USS America First, he wasn't shanghai'd. What levers would he have to move those congresspersons? He certainly wouldn't be 1/10 as good as Trump at rallying the faithful to pressure errant lawmakers. I fear his only leverage would be dealmaking, back-scratching and log rolling. Personally, I've had quite enough of that

Then welcome to Trump's inability to achieve his agenda.

Pence knows the levers better than Trump, in this machine. (I will also readily concede that Trump would thrash Pence in a leadership metric.)

I'm somewhat confused by whether Pence had a role in the health care arm twisting. My suspicion is that Ryan said, "I got this" and wanted to look the hero.

Oops.

Sending Pence after the fact to try to see what was salvageable was probably a day late and a dollar short.

 

[BugI02]

I think someone else already said it. Trump can't achieve his agenda because congress doesn't fear him. Reagan could appeal directly to the people to being pressure to bear. Today the people are too jaded and cynical and fragmented to accomplish much

 

[jamil]

Jamil(*nhrn) I think Pence is the embodiment of the concern you had (with respect to the ACA replacement legislation) of losing 'tuesday morning caucus' members by trying to woo the FC. I don't think Pence has what it takes to motivate the Trumpers. He's too pastel, too much of an apparatchik. Like a more evangelical Kasich.

I think folks who think if Pence got the big chair he could really get things done are kidding themselves, in that he would alienate more existing support than could be compensated for by new support he brings on board

It's a losing proposition anyway you go. As factional as Republicans are, any support one wins is support another loses. I think it's not possible for any Republican to pass controversial legislation. Pence at least has the political experience to understand that.

Of all the things about politics that Trump DOESN'T understand, that's probably one one where rubber meets the road most. I think that Trump is going to find out that his "art of the deal" chi don't work like he thinks when it comes to legislators. Maybe he can figure out how to make that knowledge transferable. But tweeting out vindictive crap like he did this morning isn't very artful in the political world.

 

[jamil]

I think someone else already said it. Trump can't achieve his agenda because congress doesn't fear him. Reagan could appeal directly to the people to being pressure to bear. Today the people are too jaded and cynical and fragmented to accomplish much

No. it's because Trump doesn't have as much political capital as he thinks he does. Said another way, it's politically safe enough in most districts to go against trump, depending on the issue.