MWAG (Man With a Gun) 911 call

[Joe Williams]

Again, I respect everyone's right to do as they choose. I just like to avoid as much drama as possible.

I'm getting old.

Vanguard.45

I understand the point you are trying to make. I merely reject it. American citizens behaving in compliance with the law should not be required to expect, or accept, "drama" for behaving in a lawful manner.

 

[Vanguard.45]

For Joe WIlliams

You have every right to reject the idea that you must expect or accept drama for behaving in compliance with the law.

Unfortunately, like the guy going to Arby's discovered, sometimes our innocent and completely legal decisions bring drama with them anyway.

I personally choose to be discreet about carrying because I can't see how that choice has more of a chance of stirring up the sheep than choosing to carry openly. I would never tell you or anyone else not to carry openly if it is legal to do.

Thanks for your comment and for your respectable opinion.

I wish peace for you, and I am glad you are prepared in case one day it does not find you.

Vanguard.45

 

[OAK]

I agree with vanguard... I CC, why make yourself a target? Never once have I seen anyone OC they're LTCH. I'm not bashing anyone for exercising your rights but if you must OC don't be shocked if this happens to you... I've have better things to do than explain to the LEO I'm legal.

 

[bglaze]

Never once have I seen anyone OC they're LTCH.

Interesting idea--putting your LTCH into a leather holder with a see-through front and wearing it openly on your belt next to your gun.

If you did this the cops would literally have no excuse to stop you if you are otherwise acting within the law.

This seems to be a ridiculous measure, but I wonder what people's thoughts on this would be.

 

[88GT]

This could have all been stopped by the dispatcher.

Yes! A million times over. With very few exceptions, having a firearm on one's person is NOT a crime in and of itself.

Of course the flip side of that coin is going to turn up when it does turn into a crime. Someone's gonna cry foul that the phone call about the "guy with a gun" should have a least warranted a look-see.

I don't agree with that POV, but that's what would happen, I'm sure. Of course, my response is simply, "Yeah, well, if the rest of the restaurant carried too the bad guy may not have been able to be a bad guy that day in that restaurant."

We're long past the point where actions are the responsibility of the individual.

 

[Zachoff]

I think Protest and others need to get laid or at least lighten up a bit. Vanguard just gave his opinion and many of us agree. OC brings attention to yourself, period. It's our right, but it will bring trouble at times. No it's not justified, but it is reality. Someday that will change and we can carry open without cause, but for now it must be used in reserve. Don't give me this S--t about comfort!! CC can be optimized so that you will have it when needed and not give away your position. I OC'ed today accidentally. I forgot to cover up and some road workers saw my carry. I think it scared them. What did I gain from this? Now you might think, big deal, I can OC in Indiana, it's my right. Why scare the crap out of a check out clerk at the Lowes store just because you have the right? What is the purpose? Are you going to change the opinions of the masses (Sheep) by doing that? Baaa! Sorry, had to do that. No! OC should be the norm and we will get there, but with that said it is still your choice. I choose to fight another way and still be prepared. Vanguard is is just like you! He gives a sh-t about your rights. He's on your side. He is just stating the obvious.

 

[JusAdSumBellum]

I think he should have loaded his gun at home.

I wonder what a soccer mom's definition of loading a gun is.

 

[Manan]

Nice discussion and kudos to VanGuard for handling himself well in expression of his opinion and making very sound logical arguments and judgments.

 

[Jon Craig]

Why scare the crap out of a check out clerk at the Lowes store just because you have the right?

/sigh.

They're only "scared the crap out of" because they're not used to seeing responsible citizens carrying guns. If it was more commonplace, they wouldn't be "scared the crap out of" anymore.

I know, broken record, but that's really how I, and many that choose to OC, feel.

For the record - I don't OC, or CC - I'm still in the interminable wait for my LTCH.

 

[bglaze]

Someday that will change and we can carry open without cause, but for now it must be used in reserve.

It will only change if it becomes the norm. It will only become the norm if people like you start doing it.

If people keep saying, "Yes OC is legal, but you still shouldn't do it."

Well then it might as well be illegal. What difference would it make?

If people keep saying, "OCing scares people. If you keep doing it, eventually they're going to make a law that makes it illegal."

Well, if you don't OC now, then it is as good as illegal anyway. A right unexercised is just as good as a right lost.

Zachoff, I really don't think you get it. You say in the same breath, "OC scares people, why do it?" and then, "We will get there; it will be the norm someday."

I think you're a bit confused. It will never be the norm if people don't start doing it. We can't wait for society to magically change their minds. We have to change their minds for them. And we do this by showing them honest hard-working citizens (just like them) carrying firearms as a part of their daily lives.

There is nothing scary about the sight of a firearm. Citizens see firearms on the hips of police every day. So the gun itself is not the scary sight. They are just not use to seeing it on the hip of a citizen. We need to change this! It is we, the citizens, who actually have a RIGHT to carry. The police do not have a RIGHT to carry. They carry, because that is a privilege granted to them by us.

 

[Jon Craig]

There is nothing scary about the sight of a firearm. Citizens see firearms on the hips of police every day.

Oh, but the police are our friends, and could never do anything wrong...

Note: I am NOT anti-police; I believe most cops are good people. But they're just that: people, and people have the capacity for good or ill, regardless of a badge.

 

[kingnereli]

I think Protest and others need to get laid or at least lighten up a bit. Vanguard just gave his opinion and many of us agree. OC brings attention to yourself, period. It's our right, but it will bring trouble at times. No it's not justified, but it is reality. Someday that will change and we can carry open without cause, but for now it must be used in reserve. Don't give me this S--t about comfort!! CC can be optimized so that you will have it when needed and not give away your position. I OC'ed today accidentally. I forgot to cover up and some road workers saw my carry. I think it scared them. What did I gain from this? Now you might think, big deal, I can OC in Indiana, it's my right. Why scare the crap out of a check out clerk at the Lowes store just because you have the right? What is the purpose? Are you going to change the opinions of the masses (Sheep) by doing that? Baaa! Sorry, had to do that. No! OC should be the norm and we will get there, but with that said it is still your choice. I choose to fight another way and still be prepared. Vanguard is is just like you! He gives a sh-t about your rights. He's on your side. He is just stating the obvious.

In mass? Probably not. However, you would be hard pressed to find an avid OCer that has not had a very amiable conversation with someone on prompted by the presence of a visible gun. We don't often turn them into gun nuts in five minutes but making them reasonably comfortable is an achievable goal. Sometimes it is just a matter of misinformation. There are plenty of people in this state that have no clue that carrying a gun is legal. So sometimes we scare the check out clerk, sometimes we get an opportunity to educate/comfort an unknowing sheep yet most of the time the best scenario plays out and nothing happens.

 

[Zachoff]

I think that we need to keep working in the right direction and CC and OC will help us win the fight, but over the last fifty years liberals and anti gun folks have painted us into this anti gun climate corner. Just OC'ing in mass, exercising our right won't do it alone. And you are right, I am conflicted!! Just like the first amendment. We have the right to say what ever we want, but we are responsible for the outcome of what we say and when we say it. We are fighting fifty years of this negative stuff and we need to start voting in politicians that are first and foremost pro second amendment, regardless of party affiliation. This is going to take some time and we will not be able to force it upon the sheep that easily. Dan Coats primary victory is a perfect example of going in the wrong direction as would a vote for most (pretty much all) democrat's at this moment in this state and the country as a whole.

 

[Zachoff]

It will only change if it becomes the norm. It will only become the norm if people like you start doing it.

If people keep saying, "Yes OC is legal, but you still shouldn't do it."

Well then it might as well be illegal. What difference would it make?

If people keep saying, "OCing scares people. If you keep doing it, eventually they're going to make a law that makes it illegal."

Well, if you don't OC now, then it is as good as illegal anyway. A right unexercised is just as good as a right lost.

Zachoff, I really don't think you get it. You say in the same breath, "OC scares people, why do it?" and then, "We will get there; it will be the norm someday."

I think you're a bit confused. It will never be the norm if people don't start doing it. We can't wait for society to magically change their minds. We have to change their minds for them. And we do this by showing them honest hard-working citizens (just like them) carrying firearms as a part of their daily lives.

There is nothing scary about the sight of a firearm. Citizens see firearms on the hips of police every day. So the gun itself is not the scary sight. They are just not use to seeing it on the hip of a citizen. We need to change this! It is we, the citizens, who actually have a RIGHT to carry. The police do not have a RIGHT to carry. They carry, because that is a privilege granted to them by us.

I understand your argument and I mostly agree with it. My only issue is that how we go about changing societies opinions about guns. The shotgun approach, although I like it, might not be the best way of achieving long term victory. You are right, I don't exactly get it. Do you? The average citizen has been conditioned to call the police when they need help, not the guy oc'ing in the parking lot. Firstly, most people do not own handguns and we need to consider this when we take action. It's basic situational awareness, but understand we do not live our lives in a vacuum. we are part of the situation and we changed the situation because we OC. Rightly or wrongly, we have change the situation in the eyes of the sheep to one they have not been conditioned to. I think we have to slowly condition them, but how? I take every opportunity to teach anti gun folk their error. I think it is working. Along with the Heller decision and the Chicago case, the country is slowly moving in the right direction. Just my observation.

 

[Vanguard.45]

I agree with Zachoff. . .

which doesn't mean I disagree with the observation that OC might have a positive effect.

I guess I just don't have a huge desire to convert others to my way of thinking about guns compared with my desire to avoid the potential drama that can come from OC.

If that is one of your life's goals- to convert the non-believers- then that is certainly a noble goal. It's just not one of mine.

As I said before, I always felt like birthday presents were better when they were "surprises" and not simply wrapped in plastic wrap.

I don't know if would-be predators and tough guys will enjoy my "surprise" or not, but if they're doing something which prompts me to take out my "present," I guess they just zigged when they should have zagged.

Stuff happens.

Vanguard.45

 

[Protest]

I think Protest and others need to get laid or at least lighten up a bit.

In this thread, I have countered Vanguard's posts without attacking him personally. You, however, have chosen a personal attack. It is uncalled for and elementary. Address my points only.

 

[ATM]

...I always felt like birthday presents were better when they were "surprises" and not simply wrapped in plastic wrap.

I don't know if would-be predators and tough guys will enjoy my "surprise" or not, but if they're doing something which prompts me to take out my "present,"...

When they see my unwrapped present, they seem to have no desire to "shake the box" or even attend the party.

 

[Zachoff]

Wow Protest! I personally attacked you? Saying that you should lighten up! Funny that you say that after you ripped on Vanguard and tried to hand him his hat. Re-read your posts. Bottom line, I have respect for you and anyone who posts on this site as long as we are working together to fight our common enemy. We may differ in how to accomplish the common goal, but we should respect others views. To that end, I apologies if I personal offended you. It was not intended. I'm sure that you did not mean to personally attack or rip on vanguard. We are all very passionate about this topic and that's a good thing. Let's try and work together in a positive way to change the average persons views of OC, CC and guns in general.

 

[Protest]

Wow Protest! I personally attacked you? Saying that you should lighten up! Funny that you say that after you ripped on Vanguard and tried to hand him his hat. Re-read your posts. Bottom line, I have respect for you and anyone who posts on this site as long as we are working together to fight our common enemy. We may differ in how to accomplish the common goal, but we should respect others views. To that end, I apologies if I personal offended you. It was not intended. I'm sure that you did not mean to personally attack or rip on vanguard. We are all very passionate about this topic and that's a good thing. Let's try and work together in a positive way to change the average persons views of OC, CC and guns in general.

You addressed my sex life and I addressed his ideas. Big difference.

 

[indytechnerd]

Interesting idea--putting your LTCH into a leather holder with a see-through front and wearing it openly on your belt next to your gun.

If you did this the cops would literally have no excuse to stop you if you are otherwise acting within the law.

This seems to be a ridiculous measure, but I wonder what people's thoughts on this would be.

Because someone has to...