MWAG (Man With a Gun) 911 call

[Jon Craig]

I guess all rapists are blind.

No, rapists are animals that really should be put down.

I don't care if a woman or girl is walking around NAKED. Her body is hers, she says who doesn't and doesn't get to touch/etc it. End of story. Period. No exceptions.

 

[kingnereli]

and I encourage you to do what you feel is right.

I am happy you carry and are a responsible gun owner.

Once again, I am not worried about offending anyone, just avoiding drama for me personally.

To respond to your analogies, would you find it appropriate to go to a typical job interview with tattoos on your face or with a "biker look" or being immodestly dressed? Would you encourage your children to do so? My guess is probably not.

Most people with those attributes (and I have nothing against any of them) tend to compartmentalize those parts of their lives (i.e. they put tattoos where they are not seen in work clothes, they dress differently at work than at home, they put on their leather clothes on weekends when they are going riding) and understand that propriety sometimes is necessary to get through and/ or be successful in this world. Not always, but often.

On the other hand, some people get tatted up and pierced all over their faces and wear extravagant clothing and choose not to have good hygiene and then wonder why they didn't get the promotion or didn't get the job. I am not saying people who OC have ANY of these traits, but it is sometimes similar in the NEED to stand out for some people. Some people NEED to have everyone know they are carrying a gun for some reason. Maybe it is just a statement for them about personal freedom (a freedom I support), but for others it may be some need to simply get noticed or draw attention to the fact that they are different or special. Either way, sometimes the sheeple may not care what your intent is, but rather call 911 in a panic and stir up the hornet's nest.

I guess alll I have been saying is choices have consequences, and like you said, maybe OC will have a positive effect if people see it enough. I hope it does have the effect you describe. It's a gamble either way. If everyone gambled the same way, Vegas would be a boring place.

My personal reasons for not carrying OC are my own, as I tend to work in places where guns are not the norm and people tend to freak out. A gun on my hip in these environments also immediately identifies me as law enforcement, and sometimes that, too, can be a bad thing.

I guess I just like a bit of discretion and always felt birthday presents should be surprises and not covered only in saran wrap.

It's just my way for me, and I respect everyone's decisions to do what they feel is right for them.

I thank you for being a supporter of the Second Amendment and for exercising your right to carry. We need more people like you in the world.

And I like your Colt Avatar, Kingnereli. I own a WWI Colt 1911 and wouldn't trade it for the world!

Vanguard.45

How did you come to the conclusion that some people OC purely for the attention? While that may be the case I'm not convinced that it is a prevalent issue amongst OCers.

As to my analogies, I don't particularly promote any of those things to my children (or don't plan to. It's hard to talk social issues with a two year old and a child yet unborn.) I suppose my main point was that people tend to know the possible outcomes of their actions and that the chance of offending someone shouldn't be high on the list of controlling factors.

I also completely understand the reasons for CC only. I'm certainly not anti-CC and you don't have to justify your reason by me. I just like to promote OC because if more people did it the easier it would be to normalize gun ownership. AT least thats what I'm betting on.

I thank you for your civility as some of these conversations get heated. Oh, and if you are a Colt man you are okay with me.

 

[Vanguard.45]

I agree with your assessment of rapists, Jon, and I have arrested several.

At the same time, do you encourage your female family members to walk around naked? If not, why not? Probably because you are a responsible parent and a grown man who understands the nature of the world.

Recently, in Portland, Maine, I believe, there were a bunch of female protesters walking around topless protesting the fact that "Men can do it so we should be able to also." The women seemed surprised and offended that they were drawing a HUGE crowd of perverts who kept filming them and taking their pictures and ogling them.

What a surprise!

It's called common sense. Modesty is a prized value for a reason, as is discretion.

Again, I do not BLAME the protestors for the perverts' actions, but this particular drama would probably not have been visited upon them but for their choice to walk around topless for whatever reason. Do you see the difference? I know it is subtle, but like someone once said, "God is in the details."

Me? I'm all for topless women! (Just kidding)

Thanks for the lively discussion.

Vanguard.45

 

[Vanguard.45]

Kingnereli

I, too, value your decision to carry how you see fit, your comments, your civility in a topic of true importance, and your love of Colts.

Be well, and I wish peace, love, joy, and success to you and your family.

God Bless You,

Vanguard.45

 

[Jon Craig]

Me? I'm all for topless women! (Just kidding)

At least on that we'll agree.

The rest. You're basically blaming victims, while claiming to not be, and that I cannot agree with, condone, or even understand.

 

[Shadowbeach]

.

 

[Vanguard.45]

Again, Jon, I am not BLAMING victims.

I blame criminals for their choices and actions.

I also recognize that many criminals (muggers, rapists, etc.) often select targets of opportunity and wearing LOTS of jewelry or exposing LOTS of skin while walking about town can draw their attention.

If recognizing this fact is "blaming the victim" for you, then I guess we'll just have to disagree about that aspect.

I think, though, like I said before, you probably do or will (if applicable) encourage your wife/ girlfriend/ daughter(s) to dress at least "appropriately" if not "modestly." Common sense, right. I don't think that necessarily means you are blaming them if, GOD FORBID, they were ever attacked. Again, I would never wish that horror on ANYONE, and I am not trying to make it personal. I am just asking for you to reflect on your own standards for your female family members and want you to know that is all I am trying to promote.

I think we all recognize that personal choices can have horrible consequences because there are evil people out there who are looking for victims. I encourage my famliy members to keep a low profile because they will be less likely to draw attention.

When I used to teach self defense classes in the community, I used to use the "Zebra Principle." I asked people how an animal whose primary coloration was black and white and so striking a pattern of stripes was able to survive in an environment made up primarily of browns and greens and tans (other than the fact that lions are color blind). It is because the zebra blends in, not primarily with their surroundings, but rather, with the rest of the herd. When attacking, the lions have a hard time differentiating one zebra from the other in the moving herd and often have to wait for one zebra to break away from the herd so they are easier to distinguish and bring down. A pretty good survival trait for the zebra, don't you think, and a principle I try and apply to myself and encourage my family members to remember as well.

I think that is also the extent of the argument regarding open carry. There are paranoid sheeple out there who can make our lives complicated due to their own ignorance and mistrust of guns. I hope that mistrust changes and perhaps the more we open carry the better the situation becomes. In the mean time, there are choices to be made and people's surroundings are different, so their choices are their own and I support them in their freedom.

And I am glad we agree on the topless women thing!

Be well,

Vanguard.45

 

[Jon Craig]

I think, though, like I said before, you probably do or will (if applicable) encourage your wife/ girlfriend/ daughter(s) to dress at least "appropriately" if not "modestly."

I "encourage" my wife to dress as she sees fit, and I guarantee you, if anyone so much as attempts to rape or otherwise assault her, no matter what she was wearing, be it burka or be it bikini, law be damned, I'll make sure it's the last action he takes.

I encourage my famliy members to keep a low profile because they will be less likely to draw attention.

You are, essentially, living in fear.

 

[Vanguard.45]

You might be right, Jon

I do fear for the safety of my wife and kids every day, because I have seen horrors, and how they can befall even the most prepared among us.

I guess I just do what I can to avoid the drama in my personal life and in the lives of my family members to the best of my ability.

I remember reading Michael Connelly's book "A Darkness More Than Night" where the main character, a retired FBI Agent, reflects on being a parent in the following exchange:


"So what's it like, Terry? Being a father."

"It's the best of times, it's the worst of times."

His stock answer. He then thought a moment and added something he had thought about but never said, not even to Graciela.

"It's like having a gun to your head all the time."
Winston looked confused and maybe even a little concerned.

"How so?"
"Because I know if anything ever happens to her, anything, then my life is over."

I understand the emotion you feel in wanting to protect (or avenge wrongs against) your family, although I do not condone acts of vengeance as you indicated. That would, sadly, only alter reality by taking from this world a single perpetrator while at the same time taking from your wife a free husband. May neither of us ever know the pain such horrors biring.

I guess I am just taking the proactive approach rather than the reactive approach.

Fear is a gift according to some. If it gets out of control, it is a problem, but if it guides your ship away from the storms, it is a blessing.

Just my take on it. Thanks for your time.

Vanguard.45

 

[Jon Craig]

You're free to do as you wish (for now!)

Me, though, I'm tired of seeing laws made, actions taken, because "x might happen."

"You MIGHT kill someone, so you can't own a gun..."

"A kid MIGHT hurt themselves, so you shouldn't have a trampoline..."

"Some ******* MIGHT rape you, so wear a burka..."

Nah. Live life free and unafraid.

 

[Vanguard.45]

Back to the OP

The lady who called the police was an imbecile.

There, that's simple enough.

Vanguard.45

 

[Jon Craig]

The lady who called the police was an imbecile.

She's entitled to call the cops, if she sees a gun and doesn't understand that citizens are generally allowed to carry guns. If more people did so legally, responsibly, and without making a big deal or show out of it, then I doubt we'd see many MWAG calls against legally carrying citizens.

 

[Vanguard.45]

I'm not talking about passing laws, Jon

I am talking about prudent choices to avoid drama.

I would NEVER condone laws taking away your RIGHT to dress or carry or adorn yourself in any way in which you choose.

I am just saying choices can have consequences. As others have said, open carry might improve the situation.

I agree with them (and you) that we should all be free to choose.

I wish you strength, wisdom, and joy in all aspects of your life.

Vanguard.45

And I agree with your last post.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If more people did so legally, responsibly, and without making a big deal or show out of it, then I doubt we'd see many MWAG calls against legally carrying citizens.

Well said, Mr. Craig. Change the culture, change the world.

Open carrying is part political activism. It is an educational experience for our fellow citizens.

We need to change: "he's got a gun!!!" to "oh, he's got a gun, ho hum."

 

[Jon Craig]

Well said, Mr. Craig. Change the culture, change the world.

Open carrying is part political activism. It is an educational experience for our fellow citizens.

We need to change: "he's got a gun!!!" to "oh, he's got a gun, ho hum."

Exactly. There's a similar movement in the body mod (tattoo, piercing, etc) subculture(s).

 

[bglaze]

The attitude that OCers carry openly in order to show off or draw attention to themselves is unfounded if you ask me. All the OCers I know do it for "good" reasons: for comfort, for education, for freedom, etc...

However, I currently feel that society tries to force gun carriers to conceal by making them feel as if they are doing something wrong. I also believe that many CCers who are vocal against OCing do the same thing. They are attempting to oppress our right by making OCing a dirty or immature or inappropriate thing.

The discernment whether or not to OC or CC has to be made by the individual. I CC all the time to places where I decide that it would be more appropriate. Vanguard has said multiple times that there are times/places when it is inappropriate to Open Carry. This is true. But why the need to tell us this so repeatedly? Has someone posted an incident where they have OCed to a specific event that was inappropriate? 99% of the comments I read about the places where people commonly OC (see 'Where Did You OC today?') are just stores, gas stations, and restaurants around town while these individuals are going about their daily lives. I don't see a problem here.

The choice to OC is not immature or inappropriate. It currently does come with some consequences. Until society grows re-accustomed to seeing it, there will be needless MWAG calls. Once dispatchers get tired of hearing these needless calls they will start being a little smarter about whose time they waste. Once citizens start realizing that LOTS of citizens carry guns, they will stop freaking out as much.

It's actually a LOT like the homosexual movement in a way. Society use to be extremely unfriendly and unaccepting of homosexuality, especially when it was on public display. And I agree that having to tell the world all about the type of people you have sex with is ridiculous. However, as ridiculous as we may believe it to be, it has accomplished one thing for sure. By homosexuals dressing in drag and gathering in giant flaming parades, by them flaunting their gay freedom in public with blatant disregard for the feelings of society and how uncomfortable it made most people feel, they have achieved, by doing this and doing it often, an extremely high level of normalcy for their practice. Homosexuality is now widely accepted. It is taught to our 3 and 4 year olds in kindergarten as a viable and normal lifestyle. It is praised by the masses, and those who now dare to openly oppose it are labeled homophobes and are now the socially unacceptable ones.

There is indeed something to be gained for proudly displaying (or flaunting) one's rights.

 

[theturtle06]

No, rapists are animals that really should be put down.

I don't care if a woman or girl is walking around NAKED. Her body is hers, she says who doesn't and doesn't get to touch/etc it. End of story. Period. No exceptions.

Again I don't think anyone is disputing this. All Vanguard was saying is that the way a woman dresses may draw attention to her. A tall, leggy, pretty blonde with big hooters wearing a low cut shirt and a miniskirt will likely stand out (to anyone, not just potential rapists) a bit more than a woman dressed in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. I understood what he was getting at.

 

[Vanguard.45]

Precisely my point, theturtle06

Again, I respect everyone's right to do as they choose. I just like to avoid as much drama as possible.

I'm getting old.

Vanguard.45

 

[Protest]

Again, I respect everyone's right to do as they choose.

And that's why you came to give commentary on a situation where you would have done differently?

I just like to avoid as much drama as possible.

And that's why this thread is now 6 pages long?

 

[Vanguard.45]

For Protest

If no one gave their opinions on topics, forums would be empty, right? I can offer an opinion and still respect your opinions and choices, right?

And I don't consider discussions drama. I consider them intellectually stimulating.

I have seen lots of "drama" in my life from my years in law enforcement, and I am at the point where I would rather just avoid it if possible. If that's not possible, then that will be further justification for carrying my weapon wherever I go (whether openly or not).

Thanks for the discussion.

Vanguard.45