Multiple dead in shootings at multiple mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand

[jamil]

I respectfully disagree. I have hauled mentally ill folks. They do what they do for a variety of reasons, all of which can be normally explained in some manner.

This f***er, he was just evil. Sometimes folks are just pure evil. No illness, not disturbed, nor demented. Just evil. This is very rare I'll admit, I would agree with your statement more times than not. But I don't dismiss evil.

Regards,

Doug

Evil? The same “evil” is within everyone if you allow yourself to get to a certain place. When something causes you to start thinking of people with such contempt, as less than human, you get to a place where you can justify anything.

This is not a lot different from Liam Neeson saying he wanted to kill all black people, just because the person who raped his friend was black. I think we kid ourselves if we think it is impossible for ourselves to get to that place. It’s just a failure to imagine the right triggers, certain thoughts indulged, one building upon another, until we ourselves become radicalized into believing our heinous actions are justified.

DD is right. Those actions that disparage white people can lead to monstrous acts like this. It’s not a justification, it’s a start to a roadmap of pathology. Not for everyone, but just the right person in the right environment who experiences the right triggers at the right time time, indulging the right thoughts, and a monster capable of doing stuff like this is born.

Thankfully it’s a rare person who accumulates all the precursors for getting to that place of utter contempt for other humans. A quicker path to that place is a belief that the negative attributes of one person is applicable to the whole group. It seems to me, that is the most important precursor. Without that we don’t have Dylan Roof shooting up a church full of innocent black people. We don’t have this guy shooting a bunch of muslims. Stay far away from collectivist thinking whether left or right. It’s dangerous.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

A quicker path to that place is a belief that the negative attributes of one person is applicable to the whole group. It seems to me, that is the most important precursor. Without that we don’t have Dylan Roof shooting up a church full of innocent black people. We don’t have this guy shooting a bunch of muslims. Stay far away from collectivist thinking whether left or right. It’s dangerous.

This has been one of the most notable parts of his manifesto, and this trend of mass killings, that I've been able to take away. In the manifesto he detailed how he despises individualism, he justifies killing even children because they would have grown up to be more dangerous adults of the group identity he hates.

Assigning guilt to children. I'm not sure that one can justify that simply with evil, it has to (also) be blind ideological fanaticism, the same sort of collectivist thinking that has resulted in the greatest atrocities of the last two centuries... genocide isn't possible without assigning individual guilt to those being killed on the basis of group identity.

And thank you for saying "Whether left or right"... this attack was an example of the right, but the left immediately responded with using the same identity-obsessed thinking to demonize "white privilege" and white identity... exactly what the killer wanted

 

[DoggyDaddy]

News is saying that people in NZ are voluntarily turning in their guns, and the gun club that the killer belonged to has decided to close its doors. This is before a single law has been passed. I knew NZ was known for its sheep production but wow...

 

[cbhausen]

News is saying that people in NZ are voluntarily turning in their guns, and the gun club that the killer belonged to has decided to close its doors. This is before a single law has been passed. I knew NZ was known for its sheep production but wow...

This, along with NZ’s censorship laws, makes me sick to my stomach. The Christchurch event in New Zealand will be to Kiwis as the Port Arthur massacre was to Aussies.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

This, along with NZ’s censorship laws, makes me sick to my stomach. The Christchurch event in New Zealand will be to Kiwis as the Port Arthur massacre was to Aussies.

Yep, I think you're right. Sure seems to be heading that way.

 

[KellyinAvon]

The "starting a race war" part reminded me of Manson.

 

[jamil]

This has been one of the most notable parts of his manifesto, and this trend of mass killings, that I've been able to take away. In the manifesto he detailed how he despises individualism, he justifies killing even children because they would have grown up to be more dangerous adults of the group identity he hates.

Assigning guilt to children. I'm not sure that one can justify that simply with evil, it has to (also) be blind ideological fanaticism, the same sort of collectivist thinking that has resulted in the greatest atrocities of the last two centuries... genocide isn't possible without assigning individual guilt to those being killed on the basis of group identity.

And thank you for saying "Whether left or right"... this attack was an example of the right, but the left immediately responded with using the same identity-obsessed thinking to demonize "white privilege" and white identity... exactly what the killer wanted

agreed on every point. Jordan Peterson often poses the question, we seem to figure out when the right gets it wrong; fascism, white supremacy, etc, but where do we draw the line on the left? Well, I think it’s the same place as the right. It’s the point in collectivism where you start attributing perceptions to an entire identity group, specifically identitarianism. All racism is a collectivist principle. When you start taking up an identitarian worldview, you may not be a racist per se, you may not be in that place where you’re capable of thinking of the other as less than human, but you’re in the spectrum.

 

[KLB]

18-year-old faces up to 14 years in prison and has been denied bail for sharing livestream.

Most of the "Western" nations are jumping off the cliff when it comes to crazy. It is really scary. The more they try to clamp down, the more push back there will be. How long before they go full-on authoritarian to suppress those they don't like?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

agreed on every point. Jordan Peterson often poses the question, we seem to figure out when the right gets it wrong; fascism, white supremacy, etc, but where do we draw the line on the left? Well, I think it’s the same place as the right. It’s the point in collectivism where you start attributing perceptions to an entire identity group, specifically identitarianism. All racism is a collectivist principle. When you start taking up an identitarian worldview, you may not be a racist per se, you may not be in that place where you’re capable of thinking of the other as less than human, but you’re in the spectrum.

Do you think that a case could be made that even using the terms "the left" or "the right" might be thought of as the most basic unit of collectivist thought?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Do you think that a case could be made that even using the terms "the left" or "the right" might be thought of as the most basic unit of collectivist thought?

Here's why that's difficult.

 

[T.Lex]

Do you think that a case could be made that even using the terms "the left" or "the right" might be thought of as the most basic unit of collectivist thought?

A more basic one (IMHO) is "liberal" and "conservative" in the sense of "things need to change" versus "things need to stay the same."

"Left" or "right" can mean different things, although people tend to think of it as mirroring the liberal/conservative dichotomy.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Here's why that's difficult.

I'm not talking about definition, or applicability, I'm just talking about what seems to be the most basic unit of the collectivist mind-set. Before a person can have any beliefs about ascribing any characteristics to a group, you would first have to mentally form the group. Or maybe, more accurately, you'd have to have the mind-set to form groups and put people into them.

The graph you show, with the moving bars, does indicate the fallibility involved with labels, but I'm wondering about the very root of the labeling mind-set.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I listened to a podcast once where a guy was talking about things like that, and he said that one of the most basic hard-wired compulsions that all people have is to identify with a group. Then we are wired to be ready to be in competition with our group against other groups, and to be blind to the truth when necessary while doing so.


All throughout human history, social groups, tribes, clubs, societies, etc have been comprised of people that we are actually acquainted with, and for the most part those who live with or near us. I've been wondering if the internet, with social media, has profoundly changed human culture because it has allowed people, for the first time in our history, to ally themselves with groups that can be made up completely of others whom they have never met in person and who live far away from us.

In that case, it may be that our brains can't always conceive the difference of those, and our thoughts, feelings, and actions might be the same as if we are physically living with those people, and that the "enemy groups" are physically moving in on us to attack or displace us.

 

[Brad69]

So not being reported on much are the facts this guy was a world traveler which starts the the thought to where?

Normal countries in Europe that anyone would visit like France and the like.

Turkey he spent a “extended time” in the country.

Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia.

Pakistain in the northern part of the country most notably the town of Nager.

Afghanistan

China

North Korea


Maybe nothing or not?

 

[justacog]

In that case, it may be that our brains can't always conceive the difference of those, and our thoughts, feelings, and actions might be the same as if we are physically living with those people, and that the "enemy groups" are physically moving in on us to attack or displace us.

Sometimes I wonder if people in general aren't just a few hairs away from throwing handfuls of their own feces. Social media and mainstream news that makes its money through advertising has a financial incentive to trumpet ever greater train wrecks of turpitude all while selling tickets to the outrage theater du jour, and the people in whatever home on the Internet that non-critical thinkers get sucked into may even consist of a majority of paid boiler room agenda driven ideologues and rent-a-mobs. Then you have what politicians end up having to do to pander for the votes from all those warring tribes. Your quote above reminds me of the movie They Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Sometimes I wonder if people in general aren't just a few hairs away from throwing handfuls of their own feces. Social media and mainstream news that makes its money through advertising has a financial incentive to trumpet ever greater train wrecks of turpitude all while selling tickets to the outrage theater du jour, and the people in whatever home on the Internet that non-critical thinkers get sucked into may even consist of a majority of paid boiler room agenda driven ideologues and rent-a-mobs. Then you have what politicians end up having to do to pander for the votes from all those warring tribes. Your quote above reminds me of the movie They Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w

Exactly; Academics and clinicians study, debate, and discuss the fine points of human psychology, but the advertising and political professionals are the real experts. They know what makes us tick, and they use that knowledge to great effect.

Now I'm going to have to find that movie and watch it.

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[IndyZ]

I find it amazing that he fired at least three rounds through his windshield in the video I saw, yet the photo of the police arresting him show not so much as a crack in his windshield. It must be an illusion or magic bullets

 

[Sylvain]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/18/world/new-zealand-gun-surrender-trnd/index.html

(CNN)A farmer in New Zealand packed up his semi-automatic firearm Monday and surrendered it to police.
The weight of the terror attacks on two mosques in New Zealand and the thought of what could happen if the gun fell into the wrong hands made John Hart voluntarily turn in his firearm, he said.

A few folks in NZ have given their guns to the police, even before they got legally banned.

So there will be even less good guys with guns the next time there is a similar attack.

Will they give up their car the next time a drunk driver runs over a pedestrian?

 

[Dead Duck]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/18/world/new-zealand-gun-surrender-trnd/index.html



A few folks in NZ have given their guns to the police, even before they got legally banned.

So there will be even less good guys with guns the next time there is a similar attack.

Will they give up their car the next time a drunk driver runs over a pedestrian?

Hell no!
It's much safer driving to get beer than walking. Just too many drunk drivers hitting pedestrians out there.