Mosul has fallen

[Kirk Freeman]

Delusional? How so? The elements of religion are thus, Nazism and Communism have all of these:

1. Belief system or worldview

2. Community

3. Myths/essential central story

4. Ritual

5. Ethics

6. Emotional experience

7. Material experience/expression

8. Sacredness

We destroyed the religion of Nazism. We destroyed the religion of Communism in the USSR (but not the faculty lounge). In order to defeat Jihadism, we must eliminate/reform/soften the duty of jihad from Islam.

The total dominating victory which destroyed the will of the Japanese and Nazi's to fight that enabled a total societal reformation.

And the USSR?

 

[jamil]

When an ideology or religion makes people rule over other people by force, there is no functional difference. It certainly isn't by reason that they do those things. And often those leaders don't believe the **** anyway. It's disseminated propaganda to make people believe in fables so that they'll do the most horrible things to support the people with power.

 

[firehawk1]

That is perhaps one of the most delusional things I've read in this thread to date...

No it's really not, especially as far as Nazi Germany is concerned. What's delusional is thinking in this day and time we can just sit by and watch the world crumble around us and do nothing. Like it or not the world is a very different place than it was 200+ years ago. While I agree we have entangled ourselves in way too many commitments, it is delusional to think we can just pick up our toys, go home and sit behind our borders and be at peace. Disengaging from the world invites aggression as it is/can be seen as a sign of weakness, history has shown that over and over.

While I don't claim to know what the answer is, I do know we have to live in reality, not what we wish it was.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

U.S. evacuates some personnel from embassy in Baghdad as Iraqi red zone defense stiffens: U.S. evacuates most personnel from Embassy in Baghdad as thousands of Islamic fighters bear down on capital city | Mail Online

 

[hornadylnl]

Delusional? How so? The elements of religion are thus, Nazism and Communism have all of these:

1. Belief system or worldview

2. Community

3. Myths/essential central story

4. Ritual

5. Ethics

6. Emotional experience

7. Material experience/expression

8. Sacredness

We destroyed the religion of Nazism. We destroyed the religion of Communism in the USSR (but not the faculty lounge). In order to defeat Jihadism, we must eliminate/reform/soften the duty of jihad from Islam.



And the USSR?

You don't suppose us arming and training the very terrorists we're fighting now had anything to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union do you? Or were they just interpretive dancing over there? We're going to go down the same way the Soviet Union did. Under a load of massive debt.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We're going to go down the same way the Soviet Union did. Under a load of massive debt.

No argument, but ours is intentional a la Cloward-Piven not imposed upon us.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

The best way to defeat our enemy is to eliminate his motivation for fighting, .

How can we eliminate their motivation for fighting us ? BY getting the EFF out of their lives and letting those people live as they see fit .

We ( USA ) never had a problem with Islam or jihad before we got neck deep in their affairs .

No more corporate dirty **** in their backyards .

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We ( USA ) never had a problem with Islam or jihad before we got neck deep in their affairs

You certain?

What about the Barbary Wars, First and Second?

"From the shores of Tripoli" refers to ____________?

The oldest military monument in the USA, the Tripoli Monument in Annapolis, is a dedication to the men that fought in which war?

ow can we eliminate their motivation for fighting us ? BY getting the EFF out of their lives and letting those people live as they see fit .

The USA was interfering with Mohamed Atta in what way?

 

[hornadylnl]

No argument, but ours is intentional a la Cloward-Piven not imposed upon us.

This has nothing to do with it.

The $5 Trillion War on Terror | TIME.com

 

[firehawk1]

This has nothing to do with it.

The $5 Trillion War on Terror | TIME.com

Meh... pocket change compared to this.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11864-the-war-on-poverty-$15-trillion-and-nothing-to-show-for-it

We are doing it to ourselves.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

You certain?

What I specifically meant was I don't know of any act of jihad on CONUS before the early 90's , the first attempt at the trade towers was it ?

What about the Barbary Wars, First and Second?

Don't know , I'd have to wiki those .

"From the shores of Tripoli" refers to ____________?

" From the halls of Montezuma , to the shores of Tripoli " refers to Marines that leave CONUS looking for trouble on behalf of corporate interests .


The oldest military monument in the USA, the Tripoli Monument in Annapolis, is a dedication to the men that fought in which war?

Don't know , enlighten me .



The USA was interfering with Mohamed Atta in what way?

.

 

[hornadylnl]

Meh... pocket change compared to this.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11864-the-war-on-poverty-$15-trillion-and-nothing-to-show-for-it

We are doing it to ourselves.

I'm for eliminating both. Are you?

 

[Destro]

We ( USA ) never had a problem with Islam or jihad before we got neck deep in their affairs .

so the victims of 9/11 only have themselves to blame?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What I specifically meant was I don't know of any act of jihad on CONUS before the early 90's , the first attempt at the trade towers was it ?

Early '70s--ambush of police officers on East Coast.

'73--jihadis murder Israeli diplomat in MD

'70s--series of murders and beheadings by Nation of Islam in CA mostly

'77--proto-Beslan hostage taking at B'nai B'rith office in D.C., 100+ hostages

'90--assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane in NYC

Don't know , I'd have to wiki those

Please do.

I recommend Jefferson's War, Intrepid Sailors and White Gold for further reading on the Barbary pirates, especially why they fought. You might find a theme there.

Don't know , enlighten me .

The oldest American military monument is the Tripoli/Naval Monument now at Annapolis. It is dedicated to the heroes of the Barbary Wars, Mr. Jefferson's war with the jihadis.

http://www.navalhistory.org/2011/05/30/the-tripoli-monument

 

[firehawk1]

I'm for eliminating both. Are you?

Truthfully, yes. We need to bring the troops home as it's obvious we don't have the stomach or the will to finish the job. Now... should we totally disengage from there, I say no. Totally picking up our toys and going home will change nothing and most likely embolden them. It's just like all the other 'ism's in history, power and control, and in the case of radical Islam, religion based world domination. The fact we're there is simply a convenient excuse for them. If we left they'd just find another boggyman to blame for their problems.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

so the victims of 9/11 only have themselves to blame?

No , they can thank / blame our guberment and their corporate masters for that .


Kick over an ant hill , don't get mad when you get bit .

Knock down a bee's nest , don't get mad when you get stung .

Eff around in Muslim lands , don't get mad when jihad comes to Mayberry .

If a guy from two neighborhoods over were coming over to your back yard and doing what they want , when and how they want , I imagine you'd get pretty pissed and wanna do something about it .

 

[KG1]

Truthfully, yes. We need to bring the troops home as it's obvious we don't have the stomach or the will to finish the job. Now... should we totally disengage from there, I say no. Totally picking up our toys and going home will change nothing and most likely embolden them. It's just like all the other 'ism's in history, power and control, and in the case of radical Islam, religion based world domination. The fact we're there is simply a convenient excuse for them. If we left they'd just find another boggyman to blame for their problems.

They would still blame the US. It's been done by many a regime to distract their people from their own misdeeds.

Focus on the "Great Satan"

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Early '70s--ambush of police officers on East Coast.

'73--jihadis murder Israeli diplomat in MD

'70s--series of murders and beheadings by Nation of Islam in CA mostly

'77--proto-Beslan hostage taking at B'nai B'rith office in D.C., 100+ hostages

'90--assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane in NYC

Were these acts specifically directed at the US or just happen to take place here because it was the easiest place to do them ?

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

It is dedicated to the heroes of the Barbary Wars, Mr. Jefferson's war with the jihadis.

Naval History Blog » Blog Archive » Our Oldest Naval Memorial: The Tripoli Monument

Taken from the above link

" The idea for the memorial rose amidst the rage and ruin of the war against the Barbary Pirates of North Africa, the first formal war under the young nation’s Constitution. Success of the small fleet in Mediterranean waters " snip


You're right , I am seeing a theme .

 

[88E30M50]

I got through 25 pages of this thread without jumping in, but I guess I'll do so now. A year or two back, I had posted that I believed the focus on our efforts should be the elimination of extremist clerics that are inciting violence against the western world. The hissy fit thrown by a couple of INGOs members was interesting. The idea of taking out the source of the hatred caused some to froth and flail around just as one particular member is doing now. To put it simply, I think I see what Kirk is getting at and I agree with him. When WWII was won, it was not done by politicians and sanctions, it was done by recognizing that we were in the fight of our life and we pulled out all stops to win the war. Our enemies then were also in the fight of their life and they did everything they could to win, but they lost. There is little will today to do what is needed to win this war and little recognition that we are in the fight of our lives.

Is there a way to discourage radical Islam while encouraging a tolerant form of Islam? There sure is, but it may take an effort similar in scope to the Manhattan Project to pull it off. If a country falls to ISIS and it becomes a base for terrorism, we need to declare war on that country and take it to task. During the Second World War, we did not declare war on political entities and armies, we declared war on the countries that allowed them to form. We strafed the German farmers that fed the German troops and carpet bombed the German cities. We destroyed the countries ability to fight and when it was done, we put as much energy in rebuilding the country. The result was that those countries are now solid, contributing members of the world's society.

We are practicing the same type of limited warfare that failed us in Vietnam. Until we take steps to definitively win this war, we will still stumble along, allowing our troops to die taking places that we walk away from when doing so gains political points. I'm not advocating the US standing as the world's police, but simply that we defend ourselves. Isolationism does not work for any length of time and sooner or later the outside world manages to land a blow in the US despite our 'minding our own business'. When that happens, maybe a return to carpet bombing the source of the attack might make any other country think twice before allowing anything to start there.