Mosul has fallen

[BehindBlueI's]

Its okay to agree to disagree BBI.

It's a ******** in my opinion.

In yours it isn't.

Of course it is. I'm just curious as to how you arrived at your opinion. You never had someone dislike a movie you liked and wonder what about it they didn't like?

Discussion and exchange of information is why forums exist, right?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Diplomatic relations, yes. Getting involved in their wars, no. There's a huge difference in maintaining diplomatic and trade relations and getting into bed with them for the whole shooting match.

Its been about 15 years since I read much early American history and about 9 since I read anything on the French Revolution, so I'm admittedly foggy on the subject.

Perhaps I misremember, but didn't Jefferson push for our involvement with France, believe and argue in favor of the French Revolution being good, and then argue that our treaties with the outgoing monarchy of France remained in affect after its overthrow, and that treaty was signed so that France and the US were allies vs Britain?

 

[hornadylnl]

Its been about 15 years since I read much early American history and about 9 since I read anything on the French Revolution, so I'm admittedly foggy on the subject.

Perhaps I misremember, but didn't Jefferson push for our involvement with France, believe and argue in favor of the French Revolution being good, and then argue that our treaties with the outgoing monarchy of France remained in affect after its overthrow, and that treaty was signed so that France and the US were allies vs Britain?

Here's my problem with treaties.

You and 3 friends go to the bar. One of them starts flappin his yap to another guy and a fight ensues. Are you obligated to help your friend? Would he have been flappin his yap had he been there by himself?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Here's my problem with treaties.

You and 3 friends go to the bar. One of them starts flappin his yap to another guy and a fight ensues. Are you obligated to help your friend? Would he have been flappin his yap had he been there by himself?

Perhaps the treaty isn't the problem, your ability to wisely choose your friends is.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What do their actions point to as the motivation for their actions?

How about if the war name of ISIS's commander were Abu Bakr of Baghdad? Think that would show that what motivates them? Maybe still Jerad Miller or an Alex Jones newsletter on chemtrails? Maybe anger over a youtube.com video or missing a sale at Wal-Mart?

What do they call stuff like that when we somehow stumble onto the fact that the commander of ISIS's war name is the right hand man of the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) in detective school? A reason to get ice cream, right? Wait! I remember, they call that stuff evidence!

 

[88E30M50]

Uh, nevermind...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What do they call stuff like that when we somehow stumble onto the fact that the commander of ISIS's war name is the right hand man of the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) in detective school? A reason to get ice cream, right? Wait! I remember, they call that stuff evidence!

Condescending isn't a good color on you. Couched in religious terms? I've covered that already.

Tell you what, here's some of the books I've found helpful in understanding how the modern Middle East came to be, the variety of cultures of the region, and the religious aspects of their lives. Combined with personal experience and personal relationships with natives of the region, I think they've given me a reasonable understanding of some of the underlying issues and why some of your fundamental assumptions are flawed.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Arab-Mind-Raphael-Patai/dp/0967201551
Empires of the Sand: The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East, 1789-1923: Efraim Karsh, Inari Karsh: 9780674005419: Amazon.com: Books
Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph: The Complete 1922 Text: T. E. Lawrence: 9781617201837: Amazon.com: Books
http://www.amazon.com/Peace-End-All-Ottoman-Creation/dp/0805088091/
Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon (Nation Books): Robert Fisk: 9781560254423: Amazon.com: Books
The Crusades: The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land: Thomas Asbridge: 9780060787295: Amazon.com: Books
Islam: A Short History (Modern Library Chronicles): Karen Armstrong: 9780812966183: Amazon.com: Books



Your smart enough to know that someone's propaganda, recruiting tools, etc. aren't necessarily the same as why they went to war. Do you believe a threat from Iraqi WMDs is really the reason we went into Iraq because Bush told you so? (Full text: Bush's speech | World news | theguardian.com for those who don't recall).

If you covet your neighbor's resources, if you desire political power, if you feel disenfranchised and want an excuse to use force to remedy those issues, any excuse will do. Religion may be that excuse, but it certainly doesn't make it the reason for the aggression.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I've read them. Good background material and history.

I do not see these on your list. They are from the survivors of jihad. I recommend them, and many others if you want them.

Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America: Brigitte Gabriel: 9780312358389: Amazon.com: Books

Nomad: From Islam to America: A Personal Journey Through the Clash of Civilizations: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: 9781439157329: Amazon.com: Books

Inside the Jihad: My Life with Al Qaeda: Omar Nasiri: 9780465023899: Amazon.com: Books

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Unveiled-Disturbing-Questions-Fastest-Growing/dp/1893554775

Or, you can read about the motivations of the terrorist in that hate-filled right-wing organ, the New York Times: The Deep Intellectual Roots of Islamic Terror - NYTimes.com

 

[KG1]

And your question has nothing to do with the points I'm making in this thread but I'll answer it any way. I didn't support our actions in Bosnia but I signed a contract and I abided by it. Now how does that even remotely resemble those that man the pom poms for war while running away from service themselves?

The relevancy of my point is that you chastise those in favor of military actions in wars that you don't approve of but you yourself took part in a military conflict that you admittedly did'nt approve of.

You are obviously a man of conviction. You could've chosen to take a stand against and face the consequences. Were you a coward?

What redeeming qualities did you find in the military that made you want to volunteer? If was'nt for the GI bill, you've already stated that.

I don't think you joined because you were given a choice by a judge between joining the military or jail time because you obviously would've chosen jail time. So it could'nt have been that.

Maybe it was because you were'nt as idealistic back then as you are now. (I'm giving you an out, choose this one)

 

[brotherbill3]

This thread is funny. I'd stay out but I'd like to point two things out to those discussing things:

1) Do you realize how long have we been fighting this 'enemy' - that being islamic 'terrorists' ?
(hint: they were called something different when we first started ... they worked 'somewhat similarly too)

2) It seems to me that to spread our form of government to others,
would require the receiving people have a similar belief in liberty with similar background and understanding of its repsonsiblities and such;
The great experiment of America started from a seeminly 'unique' set of conditions ... and however noble we wish to be
spreading it is not that easy to those who have no concept of its basic principles
... look at how it fails here: ask a few people what form of goverment we have or how it is intented to involve them:
(HINT: ... including what it is said we're spreading in this very thread ...)

OK enough. later yo you yous or something like that.

M

^^ 1) Yes. Roughly 13 centuries. They were then known as the "Moors". ^^

.....

I'm guessing most folks STILL have no clue who they're dealing with.

MG - thanks for playing ... sorry I thought I was more clear on the wording - on the first 1 (or well both) - I meant only as the UNITED STATES of AMERICA
...
I will give you all a bit more time ... not that it matters ... since you've all moved ...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've read them. Good background material and history.

Yet from your five step plan, you seem to have taken none of the lessons in them.

 

[hornadylnl]

The relevancy of my point is that you chastise those in favor of military actions in wars that you don't approve of but you yourself took part in a military conflict that you admittedly did'nt approve of.

You are obviously a man of conviction. You could've chosen to take a stand against and face the consequences. Were you a coward?

What redeeming qualities did you find in the military that made you want to volunteer? If was'nt for the GI bill, you've already stated that.

I don't think you joined because you were given a choice by a judge between joining the military or jail time because you obviously would've chosen jail time. So it could'nt have been that.

Maybe it was because you were'nt as idealistic back then as you are now. (I'm giving you an out, choose this one)

My political leanings have changed immensely since then.

Still, how does my presence in Bosnia and whether I agreed with it compare to manning the Pom poms to send others to war when the cheerleaders won't go themselves? I'm a firm believer in not asking others to do what what I wouldn't do myself. King Kirk, I am not.

Got any other digs on my service? Oh we love veterans until they won't hold the Pom poms of our agenda. Then they're fair game to ridicule.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yet from your five step plan, you seem to have taken none of the lessons in them.

Until we rid ourselves of the threat of jihad we shall never be safe.

Reformation of Islam is the best, least bloody way to accomplish this goal.

ISIS begins to enforce Sharia law (which I believe is some secular penal code drafted at a university, if only INGO could ascertain where Sharia law comes from we just might crack the code):

ISIS: The first terror group to build an Islamic state? - CNN.com

Iraq Isis Crisis: Medieval Sharia Law Imposed on Millions in Nineveh Province

 

[jdmack79]

Until we rid ourselves of the threat of jihad we shall never be safe.

Reformation of Islam is the best, least bloody way to accomplish this goal.

Until we rid ourselves of the threat of senseless litigation filed by unscrupulous attorneys we shall never be fiscally safe.

Reeducation camps for attorneys is the best, least troublesome way to accomplish this goal.

 

[mrjarrell]

As if OPEC and the oil companies needed an excuse. Not sure why we should see a large spike, though. Iraq still isn't producing anywhere near where they were at their peak.

Analyst: Fall Of Baghdad Would Make Current Gas Prices ?Look Like A Bargain? « CBS Los Angeles

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Until we rid ourselves of the threat of senseless litigation filed by unscrupulous attorneys we shall never be fiscally safe. Reeducation camps for attorneys is the best, least troublesome way to accomplish this goal.

Your threats aside, then pass tort reform as other states have and the Chamber of Commerce craves. ISIS is not suing the people of Iraq, but shooting them.

What reform of Sharia do you propose?

What can stop men who name themselves after Muhmed's right hand man, fly the black flag of jihad and impose Sharia Law? Reformation of the reason they fight, reformation of Islam.

 

[jdmack79]

Your threats aside, then pass tort reform as other states have and the Chamber of Commerce craves.

What reform of Sharia do you propose?

You version of religion by force, Kirkaria, sounds like enough fun for me. What's better that forcibly changing someones religious beliefs in order to further foreign policy goals?


We can call your printed guide to reeducating an entire region of the world, "An Attorney's Guide to a Modern Inquisition: The Ends Justify the Means."

 

[mrjarrell]

Kirk's just enamoured of the maunderings of Ms Adam's Apple Coulter. Conquer them, make them convert or, when that doesn't work out, kill them all.

 

[rambone]

Kirk's state-sponsored religion and Ministry of Propaganda makes the current Republican Party look like small - government types. Thanks for reminding us that it really can get worse.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Kirk's just enamoured of the maunderings of Ms Adam's Apple Coulter. Conquer them, make them convert or, when that doesn't work out, kill them all.

Huh. Like a jihad. Interesting approach.