More down range photographer

[HICKMAN]

OMG... so fail... no eye pro!

[video=youtube_share;KdRlG4Vs0pU]http://youtu.be/KdRlG4Vs0pU[/video]

 

[ghitch75]

Trust Shooting?.......i guess he doesn't want anyone to know who is?......

 

[bwframe]

... Apparently Vickers does it too.

Yet he does not promote it with videos or pics?

 

[HICKMAN]

video said this was in Turkey.

 

[HICKMAN]

Yet he does not promote it with videos or pics?

gee... I wonder why?


Apparently he does it with other students, not an instructor.

 

[printcraft]

Don't worry. If you die you can just respawn. I've done it thousands of times.

 

[HICKMAN]

I've respawned twice so far, my youngest son once

 

[bwframe]

...google it like I did and you'll find folks talking about it.

Commentary from a student; pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Crawl, Walk, Run Off a Cliff

During Ken’s class, we shot an exercise called The Snake Drill. I’m not going to get into the details except to say it involves students being downrange from the shooter’s position at times. It was my first experience (a) being downrange from gunfire and (b) shooting uprange from live people. I won’t lie to you, it was just about the coolest thing I’d ever done, and Ken was just about the coolest guy I’d ever met.

And if I’d left it at that, I would have been fine. But I didn’t. I was a pretty decent shooter back then, out-shooting most of the local instructors in my area. And since I was a good shooter, I figured I’d be a good instructor. And I’d just done this really cool drill, that made the instructor look really, really cool. And 2+2=22.

So I used the Snake Drill in a few classes. No one was hurt. But folks, I am here to tell you I was not just lucky. I was damned near blessed by the angel of mercy. I didn’t have nearly enough experience to determine whether those shooters — many of them novices by their own description — were qualified to be doing things like that. I had no experience looking for signs of a shooter getting nervous and freaking out under extreme pressure. And I had absolutely no plan on what to do if someone did, in fact, get hurt.

Knowing how the drill is explained and performed isn’t the same as understanding the drill, the how’s and why’s, the potential pitfalls, the telltale indicators that something is about to go wrong. Was it cool? Hell yeah! Did the students think it was cool? Yup. Did the students think I was cool for doing it? You bet!

Maybe this is why there seems to be no video, pics, or TR style promotion/damage control?

 

[printcraft]

Commentary from a student; pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Crawl, Walk, Run Off a Cliff

During Ken’s class, we shot an exercise called The Snake Drill. I’m not going to get into the details except to say it involves students being downrange from the shooter’s position at times. It was my first experience (a) being downrange from gunfire and (b) shooting uprange from live people. I won’t lie to you, it was just about the coolest thing I’d ever done, and Ken was just about the coolest guy I’d ever met.

And if I’d left it at that, I would have been fine. But I didn’t. I was a pretty decent shooter back then, out-shooting most of the local instructors in my area. And since I was a good shooter, I figured I’d be a good instructor. And I’d just done this really cool drill, that made the instructor look really, really cool. And 2+2=22.

So I used the Snake Drill in a few classes. No one was hurt. But folks, I am here to tell you I was not just lucky. I was damned near blessed by the angel of mercy. I didn’t have nearly enough experience to determine whether those shooters — many of them novices by their own description — were qualified to be doing things like that. I had no experience looking for signs of a shooter getting nervous and freaking out under extreme pressure. And I had absolutely no plan on what to do if someone did, in fact, get hurt.

Knowing how the drill is explained and performed isn’t the same as understanding the drill, the how’s and why’s, the potential pitfalls, the telltale indicators that something is about to go wrong. Was it cool? Hell yeah! Did the students think it was cool? Yup. Did the students think I was cool for doing it? You bet!

I am throughly impressed. Cool factor x10.

So what he was saying is that his big balls would probably need a casket of their own?

Are your balls larger than life? Keep them safe on that trip to the afterlife!
Ball Caskets™ by printcraft

 

[HICKMAN]

that's one of several threads talking about the Snake Drill.

Why would would you say TR damage control?

They own it, and don't hide or sugarcoat it.

 

[bwframe]

...Why would would you say TR damage control?

Public relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They own it, and don't hide or sugarcoat it.

Yes they do. They can't hide. They are stuck with it, the same as "I'm gonna start shooting people."

 

[Josh Ward]

Burl, "big boy rules" are VERY prevalent with the well known (for lack of a better way of putting it) training outfits.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Whew, read through the entire thread, lots of back and forth, and I've not yet seen good justification for this.

I'm gonna state my position and then bow out of debate unless someone comes up with something that hasn't been said a bunch of times already in this thread and the other threads over the last few months.

For the average civilian I don't buy the premise of the benefit outweighing the risk. For extreme operators who may be called on to regularly place themselves in harms way I can see benefit to training in this manner, but even then the equation doesn't swing as far the other direction.

The odds of the average citizen needing to use their gun at all is low. Needing to use advanced tactics is even lower. I'm going to hazard a guess that many people taking these classes are doing so for recreational-training. IE, training that while possibly useful in a real scenario, is mostly being sought as a form of recreation, not because of a real, high-likelyhood need. I can hazard a guess that for most of those folks if they feel it's a high-likelyhood need, I can find a dozen aspects of their lives where they can more effectively mitigate potentially lethal threats with less risk and effort.

Being that it is recreational training and not need-based, the decision to place people significantly downrange is going to be difficult to defend if there ever is someone hurt or killed over the practice. I for one, until such time I may be called upon to routinely be put into situations where I have to use tactics such as those, will not voluntarily take a class where there are people downrange and regardless of the "cool" factor, am not going to sanction such training for most people.

I'm not a safety-nanny. In my area of expertise I regularly do things that make other people cringe to watch. I train at an extremely high level, and I regularly work with people who do as well. But we don't encourage others to do so until they are trained well enough to understand what they are doing and understand when such is needed and when it is not, and even then we only use such things when they are needed.

 

[bwframe]

Burl, "big boy rules" are VERY prevalent with the well known (for lack of a better way of putting it) training outfits.

I've heard that (and seen some.) Personally, I'm not very fond of that condescending term. Does that mean Col. Cooper was a little boy?

View From The Porch: Big Boy Rules.

SayUncle » Was it big boy rules?

One firearms instructor shoots another in a Low-light training

Warrior SOS: Gun safety, realistic weapons training, and negligent discharges

http://oldnfo.org/2010/10/05/tactical-carbine-training-another-take/

 

[HICKMAN]

recreational training... that's a new one on me. I can't afford to take training for the "fun" of it.

 

[printcraft]

Whew, read through the entire thread, lots of back and forth, and I've not yet seen good justification for this.

I'm gonna state my position and then bow out of debate unless someone comes up with something that hasn't been said a bunch of times already in this thread and the other threads over the last few months.

For the average civilian I don't buy the premise of the benefit outweighing the risk. For extreme operators who may be called on to regularly place themselves in harms way I can see benefit to training in this manner, but even then the equation doesn't swing as far the other direction.

The odds of the average citizen needing to use their gun at all is low. Needing to use advanced tactics is even lower. I'm going to hazard a guess that many people taking these classes are doing so for recreational-training. IE, training that while possibly useful in a real scenario, is mostly being sought as a form of recreation, not because of a real, high-likelyhood need. I can hazard a guess that for most of those folks if they feel it's a high-likelyhood need, I can find a dozen aspects of their lives where they can more effectively mitigate potentially lethal threats with less risk and effort.

Being that it is recreational training and not need-based, the decision to place people significantly downrange is going to be difficult to defend if there ever is someone hurt or killed over the practice. I for one, until such time I may be called upon to routinely be put into situations where I have to use tactics such as those, will not voluntarily take a class where there are people downrange and regardless of the "cool" factor, am not going to sanction such training for most people.

I'm not a safety-nanny. In my area of expertise I regularly do things that make other people cringe to watch. I train at an extremely high level, and I regularly work with people who do as well. But we don't encourage others to do so until they are trained well enough to understand what they are doing and understand when such is needed and when it is not, and even then we only use such things when they are needed.

Well thought out reply...... here let me cut to the chase and get this out of the way.

Show me an example of a downrange photographer who has been shot.

BOOM. Just sank your battleship.

 

[shibumiseeker]

recreational training... that's a new one on me. I can't afford to take training for the "fun" of it.

So you are saying you allocate critical resources towards this particular type of training because it is the best return on your dollar for ensuring your survival of potentially lethal situations you are likely to face in your day to day routine? You lead a far more exciting life than I! I do a LOT of training, in a lot of different disciplines, and most of it is for recreation. I do it because becoming better at a skill, even one I don't need to use much, is enjoyable.

I also read textbooks for recreation because I enjoy learning things.

 

[shibumiseeker]

BOOM. Just sank your battleship.

Yeah, reading through the thread I was not under the illusion I was going to change anyone's mind, nor was I trying to.

 

[Rob377]

Dude, I EDC a carbine and only travel with a fire team size element, or larger, depending on the Zombie threat level for my AoR. Door kicker training for me is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

 

[ghitch75]

recreational training... that's a new one on me. I can't afford to take training for the "fun" of it.

if not for fun?.....are you going into combat soon?