More down range photographer

[Cpt Caveman]

I'm just glad its called a "laboratory" so folks realize its an experiment.

 

[HICKMAN]

if not for fun?.....are you going into combat soon?

I don't know... can YOU tell me when my home will be invaded, car will be hijacked, or active shooter will show up in a mall or theater?

Better yet, can you tell me when the economy is going to collapse, the Madrid fault is going to open or "Red Dawn" is going to happen?

Again... USPSA matches and hunting are "for fun". I don't carry a gun... "for fun".

 

[HICKMAN]

Is there any way to verify that shooting with humans downrange actually better prepares a shooter for a real self defense shooting?

I guess only those who have actually been in gunfights could answer this for us, so that puts JY/Hackathorn/Vickers a step ahead of me in this case.

 

[rvb]

Is this the mysterious "snake drill" we are discussing?

I don't recall it being called that (CRS disease.... whatever that stands for...), but I took a 2-day competition-focused class from a well known competitor who formerly was a high-speed badass w/ one of the well-known badass organizations. During breaks, he talked tactics w/ us a bit (not something he usually would be willing to do, but I was w/ a group of DoD folks, so I think he was a little more willing to share).

We "air-gunned" that drill in the video you linked to. He said he'd only consider live ammo on that drill w/ a group of folks he knew really well and had shot with a lot and could completely trust their gun handling... we used stacked 55-gal drums instead of targets as obstacles, so it was significantly more of a vision barrier regarding the location of the other person.

There are a lot of courses I'd be very hesitant to take which offer "team tactics" and such; especially when taking it with a group of strangers. I've seen a LOT of bad shooting and gun handling over the years, and I have no reason to believe the guy I just met standing beside me (or UP range of me) doesn't suck. I always figure it helps if you don't just know the person you are shooting with, but their wives/kids/GF/etc...

At least it seems the cameraman is downrange for pretty much static drills. One target per shooter, square-range stuff. If he's willing to trust that I don't suck, I guess I'm on the right end of the gun not to give a sht. It would concern me that if he did get plugged there would be a widow who would be hiring a lawyer... (and the arguement about people downrange in the real world doesn't really hold, imo... In training, students are processing new techniques, making mistakes, etc. If you sat someone down to LEARN a musical instrument, would you bet your life on them getting all the notes right? Or would you want them to learn to play well, get some experience, then bet your life the song is played perfect?)

-rvb

 

[printcraft]

Typing sassy posts on the Internet is the same as quality training. You'll be fine.

So.... that's a yes?

 

[Rookie]

 

[lucky4034]

Doesn't seem any more dangerous than those that rock climb without safety gear, some things are just dangerous and may get you killed

Someone dies of rock climbing = just another risk taker who lived life too close to the edge
Someone gets shot holding a camera = Guns are bad... recreational shooting is overly dangerous... gun owners are stupid rednecks

 

[Dead Duck]

I guess only those who have actually been in gunfights could answer this for us, so that puts JY/Hackathorn/Vickers a step ahead of me in this case.

JY??

Combat??

This is a common mistake since he's flooded the interweb with his self proclaimed vidEgos.
I watched one once just to see what all the hoopla was about. I got the same feeling in my stomach after my kid forced me to watch a Barney episode.
Honestly - I enjoyed watching Barney a hell of a lot more than "Yeager's Follies".








I have never trained - shooting paper while trying to avoid live victims downrange like all you ninjas are preaching about.
And yet, I have always hit the correct target without injuring the innocents standing next to them.

If you guys are trying to replicate mass amounts of adrenaline as a distraction while preforming your drills, there are other ways of doing it.
Try running your drills naked. (Commando Commandos) While hanging your cell phones around the bullseye. To make it really challenging, have your teammates get supersoakers and aim at your little soldiers.
That can hurt - so I've heard.


Download that to the web. It would be way more entertaining than watching a bunch of morons shooting at some duffus downrange.

 

[bwframe]

I guess only those who have actually been in gunfights could answer this for us, so that puts JY/Hackathorn/Vickers a step ahead of me in this case.

Is this still not just a theory on their part? A theory they use to sell their product?

Mr Yeager is quite vocal on the interwebs. I'd like to see more on what Mr Hackathorn and Vickers have to say about risk vs reward relating to downrange humans. Got some links or YouTube vids?

 

[HICKMAN]

JY??

Combat??

This is a common mistake since he's flooded the interweb with his self proclaimed vidEgos

Mistake? Are you saying he wasn't in firefights? The man worked a protection detail in Iraq. Reguardless of how you interpreted "the video", that was just one day of the time he was there. You can't speak of any other firefights he may or may not have been in during his time as a contractor or a cop, because you weren't there.

You don't like his attitude...fine, I understand that. If you've been shot at more than he has, I'd love to hear all about it. There are several combat vets on INGO, it'd love to hear their honest opinions as well.


I know this much, Yeager/Vickers/Hackathorn have all be on the receiving end of gun fire and run these types of drills.

There are also a lot of other instructors with similar experiences who don't.

I keep an open mind and don't believe the drill Tactical Response runs does not violate the 4 rules of the gun. But that's only my opinion.

Calling people ninjas and morons really doesn't add much to your post, just makes you sound like yet another Yeager hater.

 

[HICKMAN]

Got some links or YouTube vids?

Is this another one of those "if it's not on Youtube, it really doesn't happen" posts?

From what I've read, Hackathorn only does this in his advanced class, so students would appear to have to have achieved a certain level of training in his eyes before they can run his drill.

Again, it doesn't appear to be something he talks about outside of his class.

It could be a theory, I couldn't tell you. Your Google-Fu is just as good as mine.

 

[bwframe]

...It could be a theory, I couldn't tell you. Your Google-Fu is just as good as mine.

Correct, my friend, but it is not me who needs to back up my claims.

 

[HICKMAN]

my claims of what?

How did specualation on my part evolve into a theory, then a claim?

This thread seems to have taken another direction since you found out Yeager wasn't the only one who runs these kinds of drills.

 

[esrice]

Is there any way to verify that shooting with humans downrange actually better prepares a shooter for a real self defense shooting?

That's a great question.

All training for risky ventures attempts to mimic the conditions in small chunks in controlled environments. The closer we can safely get to the real thing in training the more likely we are to perform well in real life. Think fighter pilots who make use of computer simulators or ER docs who train in medical simulations. They start learning the basics (knowledge), then move to specific skills (drawing blood, setting a splint, etc), and then attempt to put those together in mock trials. No one tosses a rookie into the cockpit and says "ok figure that out".

I see this as one very small step in the overall process-- somewhere between the skills of safely drawing and firing and CQB maneuvering.

As for actual A + B = C verification? I'm not aware of any specific research.

 

[Rookie]

No one tosses a rookie into the cockpit and says "ok figure that out".

I don't want to talk about it!

 

[jakemartens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g4RImcB4h9k

 

[HICKMAN]

he forgot his camera!

 

[jakemartens]

he forgot his camera!

probably took a round before they taped this part......

 

[Steve MI]

I know the guy who filmed that its a bull**** set up

 

[rvb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g4RImcB4h9k

badass tactical ninja operator chicks always choose Ruger .22LR pistols.... so I'm convinced....

-rvb