More down range photographer

[irishfan]

I can't see myself having to do any "team tactic drills". Or even shooting over someone as they run to cover or advancing toward a target.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but if there was an armed intruder in your home you would not see yourself shooting around your wife or children IF the situation required it? What I am talking about is if your wife is running to get behind something yet the intruder is closer with his knife and you were forced to shoot or let her get hurt? It is a situation I hope to god never is put on me but I have worked with my son on where to hide in his room and where to be if I yell a certain word to him. It is something we have practiced for safety as if there is ever a break in then I "hopefully" will know right where to find him and a burglar will not see him immediately.

 

[lovemachine]

You never carry your gun when your wife is around? Ever thought about the possibility of needing to shoot past her?

Ok. That's your prerogative.


Don't take this as arguing with you, I'm not. Just food for thought.....


I can, without much effort, think of many situations were having some experience in teamwork could be VERY beneficial.....but that's just me.

Do you want to train for worst case scenario or train for the way you hope a gunfight would be ?????

I'm not trying to pick a fight but if there was an armed intruder in your home you would not see yourself shooting around your wife or children IF the situation required it? What I am talking about is if your wife is running to get behind something yet the intruder is closer with his knife and you were forced to shoot or let her get hurt? It is a situation I hope to god never is put on me but I have worked with my son on where to hide in his room and where to be if I yell a certain word to him. It is something we have practiced for safety as if there is ever a break in then I "hopefully" will know right where to find him and a burglar will not see him immediately.

I understand what you guys are saying. But, realistically, for me at least, I can't see myself training like that, with live fire. If I wanted it train like that, I'll take a FoF class, and use simmunitions.

I know it was said in this thread that its "Not the same". BUT, at least IMO, simmuntions and FoF, was created in order to train for those scenarios in a more realistic manner, as safe as possible.

Why don't you see this in TR classes? You are on the line, but standing right next to a target. Downrange, you see the instructor standing next to your target. As you shoot yours, he shoots his. This would give you an idea what it's like to have to make accurate shots while being shot at. Neither one of you is standing in front of the firearm. Why is this not practiced?
Because its unsafe.

With simmunitions, you are allowed to make a mistake. On that "square range", you are allowed to make a mistake. Just put tape over your target and move on. Or change out your target. Standing downrange, no mistakes are allowed. A miss is a miss. And your life, and the photographers, can be instantly changed forever if a mistake happens.

 

[Shay]

I understand what you guys are saying. But, realistically, for me at least, I can't see myself training like that, with live fire. If I wanted it train like that, I'll take a FoF class, and use simmunitions.

I know it was said in this thread that its "Not the same". BUT, at least IMO, simmuntions and FoF, was created in order to train for those scenarios in a more realistic manner, as safe as possible.

Why don't you see this in TR classes? You are on the line, but standing right next to a target. Downrange, you see the instructor standing next to your target. As you shoot yours, he shoots his. This would give you an idea what it's like to have to make accurate shots while being shot at. Neither one of you is standing in front of the firearm. Why is this not practiced?
Because its unsafe.

With simmunitions, you are allowed to make a mistake. On that "square range", you are allowed to make a mistake. Just put tape over your target and move on. Or change out your target. Standing downrange, no mistakes are allowed. A miss is a miss. And your life, and the photographers, can be instantly changed forever if a mistake happens.

You: It's the same.
Me: It's not the same.
You: It's the same.

I run a Force on Force training company. I used to run Tactical Response. I am telling you that using man-marking rounds in FoF and shooting live ammo with someone forward of the firing line are not the same. They teach very different lessons. They will develop different parts of your Mindset and skills.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I understand what you guys are saying. But, realistically, for me at least, I can't see myself training like that, with live fire. If I wanted it train like that, I'll take a FoF class, and use simmunitions.

I know it was said in this thread that its "Not the same". BUT, at least IMO, simmuntions and FoF, was created in order to train for those scenarios in a more realistic manner, as safe as possible.

Why don't you see this in TR classes? You are on the line, but standing right next to a target. Downrange, you see the instructor standing next to your target. As you shoot yours, he shoots his. This would give you an idea what it's like to have to make accurate shots while being shot at. Neither one of you is standing in front of the firearm. Why is this not practiced?
Because its unsafe.

With simmunitions, you are allowed to make a mistake. On that "square range", you are allowed to make a mistake. Just put tape over your target and move on. Or change out your target. Standing downrange, no mistakes are allowed. A miss is a miss. And your life, and the photographers, can be instantly changed forever if a mistake happens.

Have you ever missed a target at 10 feet by 3 yards? You would have to intentionally aim at the guy to hit him.


Maybe the reason no one trains how you suggest is the lack of places where you are allowed to shoot in two directions. Most ranges are like your thinking. One directional.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

That's easily gotten around. Just run two relays. "A" group is the shooter while "B " group stands next to the target and wonders how the heck they got talked into paying to stand in front of someone they don't know while they shoot. Survivors swap for the next run.
Easy peasy.

I bet the folks running the training would have a substantial decrease in revenue. And quick.

Perhaps some trainee is a little less than stable and sees it as an opportunity to shoot someone" by accident". Bet there isn't a court in the country that would convict him." It was an accident, I sneezed". Not outside the realm of human deviance.


I hate the saying, but " Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." certainly does applies here.

 

[rvb]

Nuthin' could possibly go wrong here.

Looks like most of the rounds are leaving the range, over the top of the berm!

-rvb

 

[HICKMAN]

at least they have a berm

 

[lovemachine]

You: It's the same.
Me: It's not the same.
You: It's the same.

I run a Force on Force training company. I used to run Tactical Response. I am telling you that using man-marking rounds in FoF and shooting live ammo with someone forward of the firing line are not the same. They teach very different lessons. They will develop different parts of your Mindset and skills.

Me: it's an unnecessary risk.
You: it's a necessary risk.
Me: it's an unnecessary risk.
You: it's a necessary risk.

Yes, it's not the same. Live fire can kill someone. Simunitions will not.

 

[bwframe]

Do any other established firearms training companies follow and or promote this practice as a "training tool"?
Is the promotion of this practice exclusive to TR, their alumni and their interweb following?

 

[Rob377]

Do any other established firearms training companies follow and or promote this practice as a "training tool"?
Is the promotion of this practice exclusive to TR, their alumni and their interweb following?

The specific practice of a photographer downrange, or the more general practice of NOT using a hard 180 rule?

 

[HICKMAN]

Do any other established firearms training companies follow and or promote this practice as a "training tool"?

Ken Hackathorn's Snake Drill, from the way I hear it described.

 

[bwframe]

The specific practice of a photographer downrange, or the more general practice of NOT using a hard 180 rule?

The specific practice of anyone downrange to supposedly condition students to shooting with live humans in their view.
I am somewhat aware of some other companies who tout their "big boy rules," but don't intentionally arrange live humans between the targets.

 

[bwframe]

Ken Hackathorn's Snake Drill, from the way I hear it described.

Vid or pics?

 

[HICKMAN]

even more downrange... in the shoothouse

[video=youtube;V1om9rx46mE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1om9rx46mE&feature=share&list=UUrvIzy2P3A0ur1CQ_S8LK3A[/video]

 

[HICKMAN]

Vid or pics?

haven't found any, google it like I did and you'll find folks talking about it.

 

[bwframe]

haven't found any, google it like I did and you'll find folks talking about it.

If this activity is similar to TR's, wouldn't it be much easier to substantiate?

 

[HICKMAN]

Unless their rule is not to talk about it...

 

[Rob377]

 

[bwframe]

haven't found any, google it like I did and you'll find folks talking about it.

If this activity is similar to TR's, wouldn't it be much easier to substantiate?

Unless their rule is not to talk about it...

Were the folks you googled talking about not talking about it?

 

[HICKMAN]

Damn Burl, just google "Hackathorn Snake Drill", lmao. You can read what I did. Apparently Vickers does it too.