Medal of Honor recipient Sued for flying Flag

[Phil502]

I'm trying to figure out the unsightly part of proud MOH recipient flying an American flag on large pole. Does the pole below look unsightly?

Now this is not the MOH's flag and pole, it is mine. I'm proud to display it at 30 feet above the ground. It is not only for my viewing enjoyment, but my neighbors and people that drive by who are proud American citizens who enjoy seeing it flutter in the wind.

Bet this is probably larger than the pole that our MOH has in his yard.
DO YOU think it is LARGE & UNSIGHTLY?

There is nothing, and I mean nothing aesthetic displeasing about this, not now, and never will, heck everytime I come home and round the corner and see my flag on this pole I get a little bit of a goosebumps.

Heck no, to me that looks very nice at your place. I would like to see a picture of his place to see what it looks like.

 

[Michiana]

I can't figure out why anyone would want to live in one of these HOA's. I am surrounded by white trash. The only thing that I have a problem with is their literal trash ending up on my property. I may not like their choice of landscaping (junk cars, etc), house color, or whatever but it is their right to do with their property what they want. If you want to paint your house the other pink meat pink, that is your right. Instead, these busybody neighbors have nothing better to do than meddle in your business.

We always say never again but when we look at our options the homes in a HOA community are the ones my wife and I seem to like the best. The neighbors you describes are not the type of people I want to live next to. HOA's help protect property values, living next to the Beverly hillbillies does not.

 

[Serial Crusher]

Nothing against his valiant service here, but I don't see where he gets a free pass. He signed a contract and now doesn't want to live within the boundaries of said contract. He had, and still has the choice of not living under his contract. Just sell the property and move. He really shouldn't have moved there in the first place if he didn't want to live under the HOA contract. Sorry, I can't give him a pass on this, regardless of his military service status and bravery in the past. A contract is a contract. The HOA is seemingly holding up their end. Where's the honour in not upholding his end of the bargain?

There is no provision in the community's rules expressly forbidding flagpoles, Barfoot's daughter said. But she said the board ruled against her father's fixture and ordered it removed in July, deciding that free-standing flag poles are not aesthetically appropriate.

I disagree with you Mrjarell, there is no provision expressly forbidding it. Whoever decided an American flag is "not aestetically appropriate" needs a swift kick in the nuts.

 

[Fletch]

Heck no, to me that looks very nice at your place. I would like to see a picture of his place to see what it looks like.

Short Pump WWII Vet Garners National Media Attention Over Flag Pole Dispute | Downtown Short Pump

Video of the house available here:

Flag Pole Standoff Deadline Extended In Henrico - wtvr

 

[Fletch]

I disagree with you Mrjarell, there is no provision expressly forbidding it. Whoever decided an American flag is "not aestetically appropriate" needs a swift kick in the nuts.

Read the IndyGunworks quote in your post:

free-standing flag poles are not aesthetically appropriate

It is not the flag that is at issue here. It is the pole upon which it is flying.

From the article I linked:

In a statement released Tuesday evening, the homeowners association states that this dispute is not a matter of freedom of speech. “This is not about the American flag. This is about the flagpole.” The association affirms that Barfoot has the right to hang the flag from a smaller, angled flagpole mounted to his home, just as many of his fellow neighbors have done. The exact reasoning for the association’s covenant against free-standing flagpoles is not known, but it is speculated that worry stems from the possibility that a pole in a resident’s front yard could depreciate property value.

 

[Serial Crusher]

I understand that, Fletch, but not many people erect a flagpole to fly a hammer and sickle. Any free-standing flagpole would necessarily be flying an American Flag and also possibly a state flag or in some cases a POW-MIA Flag or a Gadsden Flag. Ruling that the pole is not pleasing is the same thing. The only circumstances I can see where a free-standing flagpole in America wouldn't be flying an American Flag is if the one on its right were.

 

[Phil502]

Short Pump WWII Vet Garners National Media Attention Over Flag Pole Dispute | Downtown Short Pump

Video of the house available here:

Flag Pole Standoff Deadline Extended In Henrico - wtvr

Screw them that looks fine, what a bunch of commies I wonder if it's the flag itself that they don't like not the pole. Thanks Fletch.

 

[IndyBeerman]

http://www.downtownshortpump.com/20...ional-media-attention-over-flag-pole-dispute/

That's a fine looking pole, nothing ugly or ungodly out of proportion to it.

Nice to see the Governor and both State Senators jumping on his wagon to help him out.

 

[Roadie]

Wonder if they make clear Lucite flag poles

 

[TopDog]

Well its gone national now. Tons of people are rushing to support the veteran. It looks like a good guy just might win one for once. We will see. But you know you have be some kind of ice hole to keep fighting something like this when the rest of the country is starting to hate you and your interpretation of the rules. I think in general most Americans are just sick and tired of the Anti-American crap even if its not intentional. Respect the man, respect what he has done for this country and respect his flag.

 

[stilllearning09]

I'm glad to hear there is a national outcry of support for him. Many Americans know about the MOH but don't understand the meaning, valor and sacrifice these men gave to earn it. Hopefully with a national spotlight, this man will be able to exercise his right to display his flag. He has more than earned that right, and no HOA should be able to trump that.

 

[bigiron]

Well its gone national now. Tons of people are rushing to support the veteran. It looks like a good guy just might win one for once. We will see. But you know you have be some kind of ice hole to keep fighting something like this when the rest of the country is starting to hate you and your interpretation of the rules. I think in general most Americans are just sick and tired of the Anti-American crap even if its not intentional. Respect the man, respect what he has done for this country and respect his flag.

+1 and AMEN!

 

[eatsnopaste]

I understand that, Fletch, but not many people erect a flagpole to fly a hammer and sickle. Any free-standing flagpole would necessarily be flying an American Flag and also possibly a state flag or in some cases a POW-MIA Flag or a Gadsden Flag. Ruling that the pole is not pleasing is the same thing. The only circumstances I can see where a free-standing flagpole in America wouldn't be flying an American Flag is if the one on its right were.

never seen your local college flag flown from one of these poles? ND flown everywhere and around here it is also be Cubs or Bears, Ever see the Stars and Bars flown...I have.
how about a company flag? The point being, if you allow the pole, you have no control over what can be flown.

 

[IndyBeerman]

never seen your local college flag flown from one of these poles? ND flown everywhere and around here it is also be Cubs or Bears, Ever see the Stars and Bars flown...I have.
how about a company flag? The point being, if you allow the pole, you have no control over what can be flown.

IANAL, but yes, I do think outside of the American flag you can limit it as aesthetic displeasing because there are no protection laws.

I'll fight all day long for our flag, but you throw up a company flag at any place other than a business and I think that is a little out of wack.

 

[Fargo]

never seen your local college flag flown from one of these poles? ND flown everywhere and around here it is also be Cubs or Bears, Ever see the Stars and Bars flown...I have.
how about a company flag? The point being, if you allow the pole, you have no control over what can be flown.

Yeah, I mean not having to see sports flags is totally worth pooing all over this Medal of Honor winner's desire to honor his country in his own yard........


Right?

 

[Michiana]

HOA info

For those of you with no experience with Home Owners Associations and all their rules and regulations let me give you my slant on them after dealing with HOA’s for thirty years.

First of all the developer comes up with all the rules usually using boilerplate legal writing put together from attorneys to protect the developer. The developer has control over the HOA until it is turned over to the homeowners when the community is almost or completely sold out. They usually have special privileges not granted to the regular homeowner and some grant or grandfather in special variances to sell a lot/house.
All associations I have knowledge of have what is called a Architecture Control Committee (ACC) which oversees the Covenants and decides what is ascetic and what is not. There are usually architectural guidelines in place drawn up by the developer. The ACC members are usually appointed by the board of directors from volunteers in the community and report to the board. The HOA and the ACC have almost unlimited control of the community and as long as they work within the written bi-laws and covenants they can decide what meets “community acceptance” such as flag poles, fences, landscaping, etc. Covenants are often deliberately written to leave a lot to the discretion of the ACC and BOD.

There are a lot of “must be approved by the ACC” clauses in HOA Covenants and very little is cut and dried. You get jerks on the board or the ACC and there are situations such as this one with the MOA vet wanting to have a flagpole in his front yard. If the BOD had refused other residents in the past from putting a flagpole in their front yard and let this resident have one it is called selective enforcement and weakens the authority of the board to regulate more important violations in the future. It also puts the community in a position to have lawsuits filed against the HOA if past or future requests by residents have or will be rejected.

I do not have enough information on this particular case to make any type of judgment as to who is in the right. Remember this has nothing to do with him flying the American flag, the issue is the flagpole in his front yard. I have been on a couple boards and seen both sides of these issues and the resident is many times at fault; had they followed procedure they would not be arguing their case. Some people just go ahead and do what they want without first getting approval as required in the Covenants they agreed to when purchasing their home. That puts the board behind a rock and a hard spot. Another problem residents have is they are doing battle with a legal entity that is using residents own money to enforce the rules. If you lose court costs can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. If the HOA loses you also pay your own share of the HOA’s legal bill. Some states such as Florida allow HOA’s to levy fines on violators and put a lien against the violators property.

All this is a good reason for people to get involved in who is elected to their HOA board but in most cases people do not show any interest. If this flagpole fight goes to court and the HOA loses it can cost the homeowners a ton of money as well as all the bad press. This will eventually affect home values in the community. It is a double edged sword for the HOA, they can be in the right and lose in the end.

 

[hornadylnl]

For those of you with no experience with Home Owners Associations and all their rules and regulations let me give you my slant on them after dealing with HOA’s for thirty years.

First of all the developer comes up with all the rules usually using boilerplate legal writing put together from attorneys to protect the developer. The developer has control over the HOA until it is turned over to the homeowners when the community is almost or completely sold out. They usually have special privileges not granted to the regular homeowner and some grant or grandfather in special variances to sell a lot/house.
All associations I have knowledge of have what is called a Architecture Control Committee (ACC) which oversees the Covenants and decides what is ascetic and what is not. There are usually architectural guidelines in place drawn up by the developer. The ACC members are usually appointed by the board of directors from volunteers in the community and report to the board. The HOA and the ACC have almost unlimited control of the community and as long as they work within the written bi-laws and covenants they can decide what meets “community acceptance” such as flag poles, fences, landscaping, etc. Covenants are often deliberately written to leave a lot to the discretion of the ACC and BOD.

There are a lot of “must be approved by the ACC” clauses in HOA Covenants and very little is cut and dried. You get jerks on the board or the ACC and there are situations such as this one with the MOA vet wanting to have a flagpole in his front yard. If the BOD had refused other residents in the past from putting a flagpole in their front yard and let this resident have one it is called selective enforcement and weakens the authority of the board to regulate more important violations in the future. It also puts the community in a position to have lawsuits filed against the HOA if past or future requests by residents have or will be rejected.

I do not have enough information on this particular case to make any type of judgment as to who is in the right. Remember this has nothing to do with him flying the American flag, the issue is the flagpole in his front yard. I have been on a couple boards and seen both sides of these issues and the resident is many times at fault; had they followed procedure they would not be arguing their case. Some people just go ahead and do what they want without first getting approval as required in the Covenants they agreed to when purchasing their home. That puts the board behind a rock and a hard spot. Another problem residents have is they are doing battle with a legal entity that is using residents own money to enforce the rules. If you lose court costs can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. If the HOA loses you also pay your own share of the HOA’s legal bill. Some states such as Florida allow HOA’s to levy fines on violators and put a lien against the violators property.

All this is a good reason for people to get involved in who is elected to their HOA board but in most cases people do not show any interest. If this flagpole fight goes to court and the HOA loses it can cost the homeowners a ton of money as well as all the bad press. This will eventually affect home values in the community. It is a double edged sword for the HOA, they can be in the right and lose in the end.

All of the above made me think of Hillary "it takes a village" style socialism. Why not just build a huge dormitory so you all can intermingle inside your homes? Your neighbors are already controlling the outsides of your homes, they might as well stick their noses in the inside of your house as well.

I agree that if you buy a lot or house in one of these subdivisions, you agree to the rules. Fine, yes they should obey them or face the consequences. But Americans used to yearn for freedom. Now, we look for nannies in every nook and cranny to take care of our personal responsibilities for us. Do we really need to be reminded to mow our yards, cut down weeds, etc?

I don't live in an HOA and never will. If my neighbors ever complained about what I had in my yard, I'd erect a 50' pink flamingo statue. Of course, I'm sure I'd have to get it approved by the planning commission and get a building permit for it. Some communities require you to get approval to have more than 3 dogs. Is this America or Communist Russia?

 

[TopDog]

For those of you with no experience with Home Owners Associations and all their rules and regulations let me give you my slant on them after dealing with HOA’s for thirty years.

First of all the developer comes up with all the rules usually using boilerplate legal writing put together from attorneys to protect the developer. The developer has control over the HOA until it is turned over to the homeowners when the community is almost or completely sold out. They usually have special privileges not granted to the regular homeowner and some grant or grandfather in special variances to sell a lot/house.
All associations I have knowledge of have what is called a Architecture Control Committee (ACC) which oversees the Covenants and decides what is ascetic and what is not. There are usually architectural guidelines in place drawn up by the developer. The ACC members are usually appointed by the board of directors from volunteers in the community and report to the board. The HOA and the ACC have almost unlimited control of the community and as long as they work within the written bi-laws and covenants they can decide what meets “community acceptance” such as flag poles, fences, landscaping, etc. Covenants are often deliberately written to leave a lot to the discretion of the ACC and BOD.

There are a lot of “must be approved by the ACC” clauses in HOA Covenants and very little is cut and dried. You get jerks on the board or the ACC and there are situations such as this one with the MOA vet wanting to have a flagpole in his front yard. If the BOD had refused other residents in the past from putting a flagpole in their front yard and let this resident have one it is called selective enforcement and weakens the authority of the board to regulate more important violations in the future. It also puts the community in a position to have lawsuits filed against the HOA if past or future requests by residents have or will be rejected.

I do not have enough information on this particular case to make any type of judgment as to who is in the right. Remember this has nothing to do with him flying the American flag, the issue is the flagpole in his front yard. I have been on a couple boards and seen both sides of these issues and the resident is many times at fault; had they followed procedure they would not be arguing their case. Some people just go ahead and do what they want without first getting approval as required in the Covenants they agreed to when purchasing their home. That puts the board behind a rock and a hard spot. Another problem residents have is they are doing battle with a legal entity that is using residents own money to enforce the rules. If you lose court costs can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. If the HOA loses you also pay your own share of the HOA’s legal bill. Some states such as Florida allow HOA’s to levy fines on violators and put a lien against the violators property.

All this is a good reason for people to get involved in who is elected to their HOA board but in most cases people do not show any interest. If this flagpole fight goes to court and the HOA loses it can cost the homeowners a ton of money as well as all the bad press. This will eventually affect home values in the community. It is a double edged sword for the HOA, they can be in the right and lose in the end.

So the HOA could make a rule that you can have a flag pole solely for the purpose of flying an American flag and no other type of flag. Heck they could even make a restriction on the size of the pole and the flag.

I understand what you are saying in regards to a double edged sword. But they are in control of exactly what is restricted and what is not to precise specifications are they not? So they could settle this without going to court by simply making a new rule. That is how I understand this. I'm just a guy on the internet reading all this so I could be wrong but looks like its just a matter of they don't want to give it to him when they could.

 

[hornadylnl]

So the HOA could make a rule that you can have a flag pole solely for the purpose of flying an American flag and no other type of flag. Heck they could even make a restriction on the size of the pole and the flag.

I understand what you are saying in regards to a double edged sword. But they are in control of exactly what is restricted and what is not to precise specifications are they not? So they could settle this without going to court by simply making a new rule. That is how I understand this. I'm just a guy on the internet reading all this so I could be wrong but looks like its just a matter of they don't want to give it to him when they could.

The douche bags that sit on the HOA boards (the ones against Barfoot's flag pole) are probably the same douche bags that sit on school boards and develop these "zero tolerance" policies. Rather than sacking up like you have a pair and making a decision, it's easier to point to a rule book and deflect the blame that way.

 

[Fletch]

I don't live in an HOA and never will. If my neighbors ever complained about what I had in my yard, I'd erect a 50' pink flamingo statue.

Mine would be a statue of a different sort of "bird".

I live in a "subdivision" that has no HOA, no fees, no nothing except the local ordinances of the town. We're zoned for "hobby farms", which means we can keep horses on our little 1 - 3 acre plots if we want (max 1 horse per acre). I put up a 5' dog fence without so much as telling my neighbors I was going to do it. I can build a shed, work on my own house, keep 3 (or more) dogs, cut down trees, plant trees, whatever. The only thing I can't do is run a retail business (zoning) or burn brush without asking permission (state wildfire regulations).

I park where I want to, as I need to, without this BS about you can't park in the yard or whatever. The neighbor across the street owns a backhoe and has it parked in his side yard. The guy next door is a truck driver and parks his big rig in the middle of the cul-de-sac. Nobody gripes at anyone about any of it.

I leave my neighbors alone and they leave me alone. As it should be.