McCarthy loses Speaker vote 3 times…

[jamil]

I agree. Beating them badly with their own stick (see: enacting limitations to the filibuster for judge confirmations) is likely to be the most certain way to restore the old norms. As long as only one side bears the brunt of bad behavior it will continue to be so used

Problem is. I don't think Democrats learn the right lessons from karma. At least while they have the gavel, they actually want to push it even further so that they can pass anything they want with a simple majority.

 

[KLB]

That's not what I was addressing... I was addressing the mis-handling of classified documents... if it's a sufficient crime to indict a former president (and to raid his home) then it's clear to me it's a sufficient crime to "indicit", i.e. impeach, a sitting president.

To answer your question, for me the answer is no. But I'd also say that neither of the impeachments brought by the Dems against Trump really rose to the necessary level, but rather were pre-texts. And, don't forget, if the Dems had the votes, they would have impeached W over Iraq. IMO, Dems have politically weaponized impeachments, so unilateral disarmament may not be a good idea, so maybe the answer should be "yes" until both sides agree to return to historical norms?

I agree. Neither of the impeachments brought up should have ever been brought up. The Ds have a singular hate for Trump. It surpasses anything I've ever seen for anyone. They've made him out to be so horrible that they HAVE to find something to get him on.

 

[chipbennett]

Is that what we want now? Each time the House is led by the opposition we impeach the President?

Sure; why not? It occupies both chambers and prevents them from doing more crap that adversely impacts our lives.

 

[KLB]

Sure; why not? It occupies both chambers and prevents them from doing more crap that adversely impacts our lives.

Really it only occupies one, at least when they are split control.

Having them split is a good thing though.

 

[jamil]

Is that what we want now? Each time the House is led by the opposition we impeach the President?

That might be the quickest path to an armistice than anything else.

 

[KLB]

That might be the quickest path to an armistice than anything else.

The wildcard is that Trump was the target. There may not be enough Rs that care enough to push it.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Like I said. A guy can fantasize. It's not practical. Republicans shouldn't do it. But. Revenge would just taste good.


The problem is, then both are legitimized. It's the problem with whataboutism. As soon as you say, what about what Biden did, if that's bad, it's also bad for Trump. Or visa-versa.

Bit we're really not talking about equivalents. I don't think the president can break that law, because he has the power to classify or declassify documents. The apparatus didn't seem to care about Trump having those documents until they had a reason to raid his home. They knew he had those documents.

Trump could declassify the documents he possessed as POTUS. Joe Biden, as veep, could not. Trump's documents were secured in a vault in his home. Joe Biden's were sitting in open boxes stacked up against the wall in an unsecured garage at his home. Biden clearly is in violation of the law. Trump was not. So it's not just saying Biden did it too.

Actually, the opposite. IMO, you have to drink a certain amount of Trump koolaid to buy he declassified the documents he took... what, was it like a sprinkling of holy water blessing that all documents in the boxes were declassified. Second, it still doesn't absolve him of the (probably unconstitutional) Presidential Records Act. Finally, if they are declassified, they are FOIA fodder.

And likewise, to minimize Biden's document possession, one would have to drink a certain amount of Biden koolaid. It was the taking and possessing of the documents that violated the law... Oops, I didn't know I had these for the past 6 years (yeah, right) here they are doesn't absolve the crime. Also, the same records act applies to VPs leaving office.

 

[jamil]

Actually, the opposite. IMO, you have to drink a certain amount of Trump koolaid to buy he declassified the documents he took... what, was it like a sprinkling of holy water blessing that all documents in the boxes were declassified. Second, it still doesn't absolve him of the (probably unconstitutional) Presidential Records Act. Finally, if they are declassified, they are FOIA fodder.

I dunno. Lawers smarter than me disagree on that. But in my reading it looks to me like the President has the final authority to classify or declassify documents. I don't think ti takes any holy water and blessing. He can just say, I'm taking these records home. They're declassified.

The Presidential Records Act is a whole 'nother topic.

And yes. If they are declassified, then people should start FOIA'ing them.

And likewise, to minimize Biden's document possession, one would have to drink a certain amount of Biden koolaid. It was the taking and possessing of the documents that violated the law... Oops, I didn't know I had these for the past 6 years (yeah, right) here they are doesn't absolve the crime. Also, the same records act applies to VPs leaving office.

Not exactly likewise. There's a degree to it that matters. In other words, if Biden gets in trouble for having those documents, it's not a certain that Trump should be. The opposite is not the same. If Trump gets in trouble for it, Biden better ***damn sure get in trouble for it, because he was not the POTUS and did not have the authority to declassify anything. Of course, the PRA is another topic. I'm just talking about a POTUS vs VPOTUS being in possession of material that is marked classified.

 

[KG1]

Here's a mind bender. If Biden gets in trouble, could he not pardon his former VP self?

 

[jamil]

No. He can’t.

 

[Ingomike]

IMO, you have to drink a certain amount of Trump koolaid to buy he declassified the documents he took...

Let’s approach this from a different angle. Who is it that has authority to tell a President what can, when, and how to declassify documents in possession of the executive branch? Where does this authority come from?

It cannot be Congress, they are co-equal.

It cannot be judicial, they are co-equal.

It cannot be previous administrations, the power is vested in the office.

It cannot be bureaucratic, they are under the executive branch of which the President is the top rung.

Actually I think the Biden issue can be pushed aside if Obummer says he declassified the docs before he left office. Then all the above would also apply to both Biden and Trump. The bureaucracies can make all the regulations they want concerning classified documents but those regulations do not apply to the President

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Let’s approach this from a different angle. Who is it that has authority to tell a President what can, when, and how to declassify documents in possession of the executive branch? Where does this authority come from?

It cannot be Congress, they are co-equal.

It cannot be judicial, they are co-equal.

It cannot be previous administrations, the power is vested in the office.

It cannot be bureaucratic, they are under the executive branch of which the President is the top rung.

Actually I think the Biden issue can be pushed aside if Obummer says he declassified the docs before he left office. Then all the above would also apply to both Biden and Trump. The bureaucracies can make all the regulations they want concerning classified documents but those regulations do not apply to the President

The President has the power to declassify any document he wants... just like he has the ability to pardon any federal convict he wants or to commute any federal sentence he wants.

The how is and always has been, a piece of paper listing the particulars: which individual named convicts are pardoned for what crimes, which individually named prisoners have had ] what sentences commuted and by how much or in their entirety, and which documents or secrets have been declassified... and the President's signature and date while he is still in office.

Waving at rooms full of boxes and saying anything in those boxes is declassified... or just thinking it... does not do it.

If he had aides catalog a list of all the documents and signed an order that all of the documents listed are de-classified... then they would be.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

If he had aides catalog a list of all the documents and signed an order that all of the documents listed are de-classified... then they would be.

Well, there's a little more to it than that (I undergo training on record maintenance/classification and disposal/declassification annually). As with everything in .gov, there are specific forms to fill out and procedures to go through.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Well, there's a little more to it than that (I undergo training on record maintenance/classification and disposal/declassification annually). As with everything in .gov, there are specific forms to fill out and procedures to go through.

Yes, the "normal" process is much more involved for mere mortals... lol... though I do think if Trump had a "catalog" or list of documents and while still President signed an order that all of the listed documents were immediately declassified... they would be.

 

[BugI02]

If he had aides catalog a list of all the documents and signed an order that all of the documents listed are de-classified... then they would be.

Fine. Show me the document, signed by Kennedy, that declassified the overflight reconnaissance photos by U2s prior to Kennedy releasing them publicly to make the case for the blockade of Cuba in 1962

The final authority for classification rests with the president and all subordinate authority flows from the president and when he so desires the 'procedure' is whatever he wishes it to be

 

[BugI02]

Do presidents have 'the ability to declassify anything'?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information

www.politifact.com

Experts agreed that the president, as commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification. When people lower in the chain of command handle classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.

The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority.

"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. "His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."

The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not "obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed," Aftergood said. "And he can change those."

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Fine. Show me the document, signed by Kennedy, that declassified the overflight reconnaissance photos by U2s prior to Kennedy releasing them publicly to make the case for the blockade of Cuba in 1962

The final authority for classification rests with the president and all subordinate authority flows from the president and when he so desires the 'procedure' is whatever he wishes it to be

Sure, while President, Trump could have released all of the documents publicly, thereby declassifying them.

 

[LeftyGunner]

Do presidents have 'the ability to declassify anything'?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information

www.politifact.com

I am not arguing whether or not President Trump had the authority to declassify those documents, I am arguing that he never exercised it.

Classification is a purely bureaucratic endeavor. The president is authorized to view any documents produced by the executive, so the entire purpose of classification is to inform the rest of the bureaucracy which documents are open to access.

While the president has the ability to change the status of any document, it is the bureaucracy that catalogs the official status of those documents…If the president does not inform the bureaucracy of changes to classifications, no changes to classifications have occurred.

 

[BugI02]

Sure, while President, Trump could have released all of the documents publicly, thereby declassifying them.

What about that 'process' you were insisting had to happen?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

What about that 'process' you were insisting had to happen?

Where? Don't put words into my mouth... NOWHERE did I insist he HAD to do it that way...

If he had aides catalog a list of all the documents and signed an order that all of the documents listed are de-classified... then they would be.