McCarthy loses Speaker vote 3 times…

[Ingomike]

Why are you so eager to allow men like Biden and Trump the absolute power to obscure their actions?

So another that cannot answer a simple question.

So just who is it that has authority to tell the President of the United States when, how, and what they can do with classified documents and from where do they get that authority?

I am going to give you a clue, NOBODY.

No former administration can restrict or bind subsequent administrations and no successor administration can reclassiy and criminalize the previous administration actions. Do you really want presidents playing politics back and forth with each other, one trying to get the other?

 

[Ingomike]

The president has to do something to inform the bureaucracy of the new status of that material…is there any evidence that he did?

Please post your proof of this. It must show who has the constitutional authority to enforce this.

 

[Ingomike]

If no one else knows/knew that Trump exercised his authority over these documents while President... then he really by definition did not.

He left the White House as a private citizen... a peon just like the rest of us.

And most importantly THE President will answer that question and assert or not the right to do so... in fact already has through his administration, the DoJ and FBI... that verbal or "thinking" something declassified is not exercising that power. The power of the Presidency is the office and vested in the occupant of the office.

We only have ONE President at a time... words and thoughts are ephemeral... which is why anything meant to last past noon on inauguration day is put to paper.

So all THE subsequent President has to do is find out what documents a former president has in his possession, declare them classified, and have a political rival arrested?

You still will not answer the question, who has this authority over a President?

 

[Ingomike]

At this point, none.

THE President has asserted that the documents are not declassified and authorized his administration via the FBI to retrieve them. (not a move I agreed with at that point, but his right none the less)

Whatever Trump said at 11:59 am on Jan 20, 2021 means absolutely nothing at 12:01 pm, if the incoming President says it means nothing... the power is in the office, not the man.

Have you really thought this crazy concept through? I never even considered that “The” subsequent President could ex post facto to go after political enemies.

 

[Ingomike]

Sounds like he is saying there is no proof that Trump declassified the documents, therefor for all practical purposes, he did not.

Yes, he is so dying to have some authority over the Trump administration that he is breaking the fabric of logic…

 

[BugI02]

Actually, the opposite. IMO, you have to drink a certain amount of Trump koolaid to buy he declassified the documents he took... what, was it like a sprinkling of holy water blessing that all documents in the boxes were declassified. Second, it still doesn't absolve him of the (probably unconstitutional) Presidential Records Act. Finally, if they are declassified, they are FOIA fodder.

And likewise, to minimize Biden's document possession, one would have to drink a certain amount of Biden koolaid. It was the taking and possessing of the documents that violated the law... Oops, I didn't know I had these for the past 6 years (yeah, right) here they are doesn't absolve the crime. Also, the same records act applies to VPs leaving office.

The President has the power to declassify any document he wants... just like he has the ability to pardon any federal convict he wants or to commute any federal sentence he wants.

The how is and always has been, a piece of paper listing the particulars: which individual named convicts are pardoned for what crimes, which individually named prisoners have had ] what sentences commuted and by how much or in their entirety, and which documents or secrets have been declassified... and the President's signature and date while he is still in office.

Waving at rooms full of boxes and saying anything in those boxes is declassified... or just thinking it... does not do it.

If he had aides catalog a list of all the documents and signed an order that all of the documents listed are de-classified... then they would be.

IDK, sure seems like an insistence on some kind of formal process to me. You seem unable to accept that POTUS can pick up a classified document, ANY classified document, and walk it into a press briefing and use it any way he wishes. That is what being the ultimate authority on classification means

Given the nature of the material used, that president could certainly be charged with treason over what is revealed, but he could not be charged with mishandling classified material

You are certainly free to believe some formal declaration, with paperwork, is necessary and retcon your previous statements any way you wish. It is, after all, the interwebs

 

[BugI02]

...which is all, of course, mere speculation, given that we aren't actually privy to what Trump may or may not have done, said, or documented while still President.

I'm not so sure. There are more than a few on INGO who continually tell us what Trump was thinking in a particular situation or what his motivations were for a certain action or even what mental illnesses are governing his actions

I often wonder if the presence of so many mindreaders and clairvoyants is indicative that INGO is actually at least part government ESPer experiment

 

[SheepDog4Life]

So all THE subsequent President has to do is find out what documents a former president has in his possession, declare them classified, and have a political rival arrested?

Ummm... they were classified all along, so that is hyperbole.

The classified sleeves and markings/stampings tend to bear witness that they remained classified and were not declassified by any known process. No problem if you possess them as President... big problem to do so as a private citizen.

How does Trump assert that he declassified them? I've only seen his "tweets" that by saying, thinking, or having them put into boxes they de facto de-classified themselves or some such mumbo-jumbo.

You still will not answer the question, who has this authority over a President?

The Constitution and the Supreme Court prior rulings define the President's accepted authority and powers... any claim of a new or conflicting authority for the office of President or the role of the Executive branch is solely at the pleasure of the current, sitting President.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

IDK, sure seems like an insistence on some kind of formal process to me. You seem unable to accept that POTUS can pick up a classified document, ANY classified document, and walk it into a press briefing and use it any way he wishes. That is what being the ultimate authority on classification means

Yup, POTUS sure can. Trump is not POTUS and possesses documents with classified security markings that no one, pther than himself, apparantly, knew or even thought were declassified.

Given the nature of the material used, that president could certainly be charged with treason over what is revealed, but he could not be charged with mishandling classified material

Sure, as President... which Trump no longer was as of 12:01 PM Jan 20th.

You are certainly free to believe some formal declaration, with paperwork, is necessary and retcon your previous statements any way you wish. It is, after all, the interwebs

No ideal what retcon means. As far as I know, Trump has asserted that saying, thinking or the act of putting the documents into the boxes while President de-classified them.

He's asserting that now as a private citizen... the current occupant of the office calls BS... Trump left himself with his pants around his ankles...

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Back from the

Should McCarthy and company start impeachment of Biden based upon mis-handling classified documents as a private citizen after leaving the office of VP?

I'm of two minds and undecided... though I do think it will go hand-in-hand with whether or not Trump gets indicted... whichever comes first will necessarily trigger the other.

 

[Ingomike]

IDK, sure seems like an insistence on some kind of formal process to me. You seem unable to accept that

This insistence is puzzling especially since they cannot explain just who has the constitutional authority to make theses restrictions on a President and enforce them…

 

[rhamersley]

This insistence is puzzling especially since they cannot explain just who has the constitutional authority to make theses restrictions on a President and enforce them…

It's simple, really. If it's someone they like and is on the left, the vice president or anyone else they approve of can declassify. If it's someone on the right, not even the president can declassify. What's not to understand?

 

[Ingomike]

Ummm... they were classified all along, so that is hyperbole.

The classified sleeves and markings/stampings tend to bear witness that they remained classified and were not declassified by any known process. No problem if you possess them as President... big problem to do so as a private citizen.

How does Trump assert that he declassified them? I've only seen his "tweets" that by saying, thinking, or having them put into boxes they de facto de-classified themselves or some such mumbo-jumbo.


The Constitution and the Supreme Court prior rulings define the President's accepted authority and powers... any claim of a new or conflicting authority for the office of President or the role of the Executive branch is solely at the pleasure of the current, sitting President.

The court has no authority to enforce anything against a President concerning the operation of the administration. The founders wisely gave the courts tremendous power, but no way to enforce that power. The claim that a President has unfettered authority to classify and declassify at will any way they choose is not novel or new, federal judges have written so in their decisions.

This whole idea that a sitting President has ANY authority over a previous President is ludicrous. You sound like the ATF. If the allegations were that Trump went back to the WH and took docs after Bidet was sworn in you have a point, but any docs the President declassified while still President are his.

 

[chipbennett]

Back from the

Should McCarthy and company start impeachment of Biden based upon mis-handling classified documents as a private citizen after leaving the office of VP?

I'm of two minds and undecided... though I do think it will go hand-in-hand with whether or not Trump gets indicted... whichever comes first will necessarily trigger the other.

In my opinion only, "mishandling of classified documents", i.e. mere possession of said classified documents, does not rise to the impeachable level of "high crimes and misdemeanors".

 

[LeftyGunner]

The court has no authority to enforce anything against a President concerning the operation of the administration. The founders wisely gave the courts tremendous power, but no way to enforce that power. The claim that a President has unfettered authority to classify and declassify at will any way they choose is not novel or new, federal judges have written so in their decisions.

This whole idea that a sitting President has ANY authority over a previous President is ludicrous. You sound like the ATF. If the allegations were that Trump went back to the WH and took docs after Bidet was sworn in you have a point, but any docs the President declassified while still President are his.

Mike, that isn‘t correct...any documents declassified by the President are still property of the government, not the personal property of the officeholder.

Declassifying a document does not change ownership of the document, it changes who is permitted to read it.

Trump has no more right to take the official records of his presidency any more than he has a right to send the resolute desk to his home office…those things don’t belong to him, they belong to us.

 

[Ingomike]

Mike, that isn‘t correct...any documents declassified by the President are still property of the government, not the personal property of the officeholder.

Declassifying a document does not change ownership of the document, it changes who is permitted to read it.

Trump has no more right to take the official records of his presidency any more than he has a right to send the resolute desk to his home office…those things don’t belong to him, they belong to us.

Just as the President has unfettered ability to declassify he also has wide power to designate documents personal as has been noted by multiple courts so I have read. This very issue is at the heart of the conflict between the archives and past administrations.

That some of you here are not troubled by weaponizing this against a former President is amazing to me. This is a civil dispute that the criminal is being used by a current administration against a former administration.

Again I ask, who has this authority to tell a President how to declassify documents?

 

[LeftyGunner]

Again I ask, who has this authority to tell a President how to declassify documents?

And again I am going to ignore your red herring.

The case against him doesn‘t hinge on whether or not the materials were classified at all, it centers on whether or not he was authorized to possess official materials privately (even while in office), and whether or not he has any right to retain them upon leaving office.

So far the courts have sided against Trump at every turn on this one, so I’m not sure why you think you have the high ground here.

 

[Ingomike]

And again I am going to ignore your red herring.

The case against him doesn‘t hinge on whether or not the materials were classified at all, it centers on whether or not he was authorized to possess official materials privately (even while in office), and whether or not he has any right to retain them upon leaving office.

So far the courts have sided against Trump at every turn on this one, so I’m not sure why you think you have the high ground here.

I have the high ground from previous court writings and the constitution.

And if there is no authority you can cite, then it does not exist and is a figment of your imagination.

 

[LeftyGunner]

I have the high ground from previous court writings and the constitution.

And if there is no authority you can cite, then it does not exist and is a figment of your imagination.

If court writings actually mean anything to you here’s the only one that matters in this discussion: Donald J. Trump. Vs the United States of America.

The result? He lost...Bigly. 11th circuit ruled the documents in his possession belonged to the Federal Government, that they must all be returned, and that the government could use them as evidence in legal action against Trump.

Lets pretend that the Biden Administration had records documenting all the things those wacky Qanon true believers accuse him of…should he (Biden himself) be allowed to move those documents to his basement in Delaware and claim them as “personal”?

What authority exists to tell him otherwise?

With the roles switched, does it sound as ridiculous coming from me as it does when you say it?

 

[jamil]

This is more or less what I assumed. The President is the head of the Executive branch. The administrative state is an arm of the Executive branch. The administrative state doesn't have any power or rulemaking authority that doesn't first derive from power or rulemaking authority first given to the President. Thus, the administrative state can't, in essence, "trip up" the President with this sort of bureaucratic red tape. If the President has declassification authority, then the President has declassification authority.

This is my understanding of it. The president really isn't subject to procedures of classification because he has the exclusive authority to classify or declassify at will. But, subordinates must follow those procedures. A vice president, for example can't just take **** home and leave it in a unsecured garage.

Nevertheless, I don't think the president can posses classified documents illegally, unless he obtained them after leaving office, when he did not have authority over classification.

But, then there's the records retention act. That is an act of congress that includes the president. I'm not sure it would pass constitutional muster if challenged. I suspect it would pass constitutional muster as far as it speaks to what records a former president cannot keep. Because he doesn't have the political power after leaving office.

Also, I don't think the POTUS necessarily needs proof that he declassified them.