Man arrested for slapping stranger's 2 y/o at Wal-Mart... and a "what if" discussion

[CandRFan]

Not being a parent , I'm biased . I think more kids AND parents should be slapped . Not that this guy was right in doing it .

Parents ESPECIALLY for NOT raising these little monsters and turning them loose on the world thinking that whatever they choose to do should be alright and nobody should have a problem with it .

*** whippings worked LONG before Dr. Spock and a pill for every " behavioral disorder " .

My wife and I thought the exact same thing. I know I've thrown a few rolleyes at screaming kids in the past.

My little girl turned one recently.

Now I understand.

I'm not saying there are parents out there who aren't engaged in raising their little ones or anything like that or think that whatever they choose to do should be alright and nobody should have a problem with it.

What I am saying is that every little kid, regardless of if that kid is an angel or a little monster, at some point is going to throw a fit in public for any number of reasons. And it's just not feasible to stay at home with the kid all the time.

I'm with a lot of the posters here...I wouldn't have drawn on the guy. I would have offered to beat him until he cried like my kid was.

 

[theweakerbrother]

this guy was in his 60s. i think youd have been ok. you can what if all day, but in this context, no guns for me. i might not even use my fists. i might just attack him with loud rap music.

You, sir, are one sick puppy!

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

What I am saying is that every little kid, regardless of if that kid is an angel or a little monster, at some point is going to throw a fit in public for any number of reasons. And it's just not feasible to stay at home with the kid all the time..

Well ya , a kid will be a kid and you can't fault them for that .

BUT .... when the kid is like 10 or older and still acting out like he's 2 , well I'm just saying there's a reason God made duct tape and closets .

 

[jclark]

First of all, great post Turtle....repped!
That man would have taken a brutal beating if he layed hand to my child.

 

[paddling_man]

First - Outstanding post from Turtle!

Agree with others - this guy wouldn't have been so mouthy if a man had been there. It's the South, folks. Old school rednecks think that way. Women are second class citizens. If the woman was black, doubly so.

Was this worthy to "draw on" in the Wallworld? Decide that for yourself... I think not but I might have felt differently at the time. Size, since we're doing a poll? 6'3, 235#. I would have punched slingblade a few times, put him in a submission hold then began snapping the bones in his fingers, asking him after each snap if he still felt like smacking someone.

For all of the "size" talk, it ain't everything nor is being small an excuse to whip out the piece.

("How bigga boy are ya?")

I'm 7 inches taller, six years younger and 85 pounds more than my brother and he could likely still take me down. He's in the gym 5-7 times per week and a dojo at least three.

("Six foot?? That's just ripe *** whipping size!")

Training... your mind and body as the weapon.


You want the real secret, in my mind? Learn to fight through PAIN. I've known folks with years in a dojo, lightning fast reflexes, with a glass jaw. You learn to ignore pain - fight through it - take a hit and enjoy it - that's the secret to a street fight.

 

[Trujillo107]

I wouldn't draw on the guy but i would definitely beat the $hit out of him I don't care how old he is. And he can also count on losing the use of that hand for the rest of his life

 

[theweakerbrother]

Every post of this nature turns out into a "how big a boy are you anyway" thread. Hehe!

 

[BloodEclipse]

I see it this way. The guy communicated a threat. The mother has no way of knowing what level of threat that is. For everyone who says they would kick his ***, I like to ask what would you expect your wife to do?
Being smaller or weaker and a threat communicated I could see a gun being exposed or drawn if the crazy advanced toward her. I would expect my wife to not wait until my child had been slapped? How do we know he wasn't going to punch or twist the kids neck? He made the threat "I'll shut her up". I don't see a prosecutor or jury that would convict a mom for defending her child.

 

[Prometheus]

Just told my wife the story, she said she would have shot him the minute he grabbed one of our girls.

Me? Prior to seeing his age or pic I'd have said draw and most likely immediately shoot him. In todays world, you cannot risk getting into a a fist fight if his buddy is going to grab another one of your children or get involved.

That old guy could have be a Force Recon Marine in earlier years... you really want to bet your life (and your childs life) on your ability to take him down before he takes you out or deploys an unseen gun/knife? Sorry kids, fisticuffs are best left in grade school. I'm going to best weapon I can employ, which is hopefully a firearm, from the start. I am not bound by any force paradigms. A man just threatened my child and now has laid hands on her... there is no more grievous act than that.

Just the verbal threat? I'd have told him to f' off and put myself in between them. I'd have definitely been on high alert and not ignored or allowed him to close in.

My wife and I work hard (being a good parent is much harder than letting your kid run wild) raising our children properly. A 2 year old can be hard to control some times... especially if they are sick. Outbursts occur. It's inevitable.

The difference is a good parent will either discipline (as in a kid throwing a fit over a toy) or comfort (as in a sick child) as the situation warrants. Not ignore or empower the fit.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

this guy was in his 60s. i think youd have been ok. you can what if all day, but in this context, no guns for me. i might not even use my fists. i might just attack him with loud rap music.

You never met my granddad, he was 5'4 and maybe 150. I'm a bit bigger than he was, but while he was alive and me in my best shape I'd be scared to take him on with anything less than an tank. Although rap might of been just as effective. He was a hardcore old school steel mill machinist used to manhandling pieces of steel bigger than him. And he had what nowadays would be called a small streak of sadism, but for his time was just being playful. Although he never would of smacked someone's kid like that.

If the parents are so rude and clue-less that they won't quiet their darling little child then you slap the parent. If they ***** then you slap them again. Eventually they will get the message and remove their crying kid from the store/airplane/restaurant/etc.

im guilty of not so politely telling people to remove their crying baby from movies, or restaurants...but manhandling the offending kid never crossed my mind.

Not being a parent , I'm biased . I think more kids AND parents should be slapped . Not that this guy was right in doing it.

Parents ESPECIALLY for NOT raising these little monsters and turning them loose on the world thinking that whatever they choose to do should be alright and nobody should have a problem with it .

While I have removed my children from a movie or school concert because they wouldn't behave, but removing them from a store? Yeah right. And just how do you remove them from an airplane? I'm not pitching my kids out the escape hatch because they are crying. I'm sorry if my toddler throwing a fit disturbs your shopping, but deal with it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just ignore it and let them do it. I'm talking 2-3 year olds. A 9yr old? They won't be sitting down for a week. But if you have a problem with my child throwing a fit in a store feel free to slap me

I see it this way. The guy communicated a threat. The mother has no way of knowing what level of threat that is. For everyone who says they would kick his ***, I like to ask what would you expect your wife to do?
Being smaller or weaker and a threat communicated I could see a gun being exposed or drawn if the crazy advanced toward her. I would expect my wife to not wait until my child had been slapped? How do we know he wasn't going to punch or twist the kids neck? He made the threat "I'll shut her up". I don't see a prosecutor or jury that would convict a mom for defending her child.

I could see a prosecutor trying to convict, and possibly convincing a jury to do so. They put this 60+ year old grandpa up on the witness stand and he explains that all he meant was that he would buy the little darling the toy or candy that they wanted if the mother couldn't(this is for drawing or shooting before the actual assault of the child) and that the mother over reacted.... But that being said, I wouldn't expect my wife to wait either if I could convince her to carry a firearm. And in this situation she would be legally justified(IMO. leo/prosecutor/judge/jury may have a different opinion)to expose in a threatening manner a firearm. She would have reasonable belief that an unlawful use of force was about to occur. And with her training and work experience she knows just how little it takes to permanently injure a child. Shaken baby syndrome FTL

 

[RelicHound]

He would of been dead before he hit the ground...simple as that.

 

[Cygnus]

OK I'm going to regret this but here goes......

Sorry folks. The "draw and shoot " crowd is what makes gun owners look bad. That action screams "Gun Nut" to me. And I hate that phrase.....
I'm not sure where but I'll bet someone on this forum can tell that we are bound by an escalation of force paradigm. At least that's what any course I 've taken has explained. Draw and shoot? Really?

Remember Ability, Opportunity, and Intent (of lethal force)?
That is what you'd have to prove he had before using lethal force.

If the guy was some old special forces dude gone bad he'd drop you before you could draw.
Not trying to or get flamed. Just trying to bring a little reason into this.
You're going to shoot inside a WalMart?
Where's the shot that misses going?
What will your think when visiting you in prison?
Y'all sound like ganster thugs with that talk IMHO of course.

Apologies in advance but I think talk like that makes us all look bad.

Now mace or an butkicking yes. Draw and shoot? No way! That line of thinking violoate so many basic tenants of responsable gun ownership. IMHO.

Again

 

[BloodEclipse]

OK I'm going to regret this but here goes......

Sorry folks. The "draw and shoot " crowd is what makes gun owners look bad. That action screams "Gun Nut" to me. And I hate that phrase.....
I'm not sure where but I'll bet someone on this forum can tell that we are bound by an escalation of force paradigm. At least that's what any course I 've taken has explained. Draw and shoot? Really?

Remember Ability, Opportunity, and Intent (of lethal force)?
That is what you'd have to prove he had before using lethal force.

If the guy was some old special forces dude gone bad he'd drop you before you could draw.
Not trying to or get flamed. Just trying to bring a little reason into this.
You're going to shoot inside a WalMart?
Where's the shot that misses going?
What will your think when visiting you in prison?
Y'all sound like ganster thugs with that talk IMHO of course.

Apologies in advance but I think talk like that makes us all look bad.

Now mace or an butkicking yes. Draw and shoot? No way! That line of thinking violoate so many basic tenants of responsable gun ownership. IMHO.

Again

So you are willing to wait until the man who made a verbal threat attacks your kid and snaps their neck? Then what are you going to do? Shoot inside a Walmart? What if you miss? Give it a rest.

 

[Cygnus]

So you are willing to wait until the man who made a verbal threat attacks your kid and snaps their neck? Then what are you going to do? Shoot inside a Walmart? What if you miss. Give it a rest.

I'd get in between them BFORE he got near my kid, like others have said...

but yeah I;ve said my peace and we're all entitled to our opinions.

Take care.

 

[BloodEclipse]

I'd get in between them BFORE he got near my kid, like others have said...

but yeah I;ve said my peace and we're all entitled to our opinions.

Take care.

And if you were a woman as was the case here you get between them and get beat first and leave no means to protect your child? I'm just asking.

 

[RelicHound]

OK I'm going to regret this but here goes......

Sorry folks. The "draw and shoot " crowd is what makes gun owners look bad. That action screams "Gun Nut" to me. And I hate that phrase.....
I'm not sure where but I'll bet someone on this forum can tell that we are bound by an escalation of force paradigm. At least that's what any course I 've taken has explained. Draw and shoot? Really?

Remember Ability, Opportunity, and Intent (of lethal force)?
That is what you'd have to prove he had before using lethal force.

If the guy was some old special forces dude gone bad he'd drop you before you could draw.
Not trying to or get flamed. Just trying to bring a little reason into this.
You're going to shoot inside a WalMart?
Where's the shot that misses going?
What will your think when visiting you in prison?
Y'all sound like ganster thugs with that talk IMHO of course.

Apologies in advance but I think talk like that makes us all look bad.

Now mace or an butkicking yes. Draw and shoot? No way! That line of thinking violoate so many basic tenants of responsable gun ownership. IMHO.

Again

same answer as earlier...he'd be dead before he hit the ground.

if that makes me look like some "ganster thug" so be it...maybe Ill throw up some signs and pimp a beotch before I squeeze the trigger

if anyone ever attempts to do any harm to my daughter I assure you they wont see the light of day ever again...and thats not me trying to sound like some sort of "gangster" bad *** either..its the gods honest truth.

 

[jclark]

I see it this way. The guy communicated a threat. The mother has no way of knowing what level of threat that is. For everyone who says they would kick his ***, I like to ask what would you expect your wife to do?
Being smaller or weaker and a threat communicated I could see a gun being exposed or drawn if the crazy advanced toward her. I would expect my wife to not wait until my child had been slapped? How do we know he wasn't going to punch or twist the kids neck? He made the threat "I'll shut her up". I don't see a prosecutor or jury that would convict a mom for defending her child.

Oh that one's easy.... momma would have put 2 in his chest.

 

[r6vr6]

I'd put myself between him and the boy and there would have been zero chance for him to be slapped while my heart was still beating.

 

[sig-sweet]

The news reported he slapped the child 4 times.......??? He wouldn't have made it to the first blow if it were my child. WHY is he standing in court? At least he should be in a wheelchair.

 

[Bill of Rights]

...Eventually they will get the message and remove their crying kid from the store/airplane/restaurant/etc.

...While I have removed my children from a movie or school concert because they wouldn't behave, but removing them from a store? Yeah right. And just how do you remove them from an airplane? I'm not pitching my kids out the escape hatch because they are crying. I'm sorry if my toddler throwing a fit disturbs your shopping, but deal with it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just ignore it and let them do it. I'm talking 2-3 year olds. A 9yr old? They won't be sitting down for a week. But if you have a problem with my child throwing a fit in a store feel free to slap me
...

I noticed this, too. Airplane? Melensdad.. I can only assume you meant that the two of you would make a trip to the lavatory to quiet the child, but the mental image was still funny (in the abstract, of course.) Restaurant/theater/store, etc? Wouldn't be the first time we left a store. I can come back for groceries later, with a better-behaved kid, thanks to either a nap, a full tummy, a clean butt, or if necessary, an attitude adjustment, dependant upon what was needed and at what age.

OK I'm going to regret this but here goes......

Sorry folks. The "draw and shoot " crowd is what makes gun owners look bad. That action screams "Gun Nut" to me. And I hate that phrase.....
I'm not sure where but I'll bet someone on this forum can tell that we are bound by an escalation of force paradigm. At least that's what any course I 've taken has explained. Draw and shoot? Really?

Remember Ability, Opportunity, and Intent (of lethal force)?
That is what you'd have to prove he had before using lethal force.

If the guy was some old special forces dude gone bad he'd drop you before you could draw.
Not trying to or get flamed. Just trying to bring a little reason into this.
You're going to shoot inside a WalMart?
Where's the shot that misses going?
What will your think when visiting you in prison?
Y'all sound like ganster thugs with that talk IMHO of course.

Apologies in advance but I think talk like that makes us all look bad.

Now mace or an butkicking yes. Draw and shoot? No way! That line of thinking violoate so many basic tenants of responsable gun ownership. IMHO.

Again

Some good points, Cygnus.. The fact is that we don't get to choose where the attacks will happen, and we may be forced to draw at some time where the backstop is not ideal. I don't think that this was one of those times, but if it was... say if the dirtbag drew a weapon of some type and was advancing on you in a walmart...Do you leave your pistol holstered because you might miss? Yes, I'll give a thought to not unintentionally hitting innocents, but my goal is to stop that threat and protect my family and myself. I didn't put other people in danger, the dirtbag did, by choosing that location. (kinda like the Middle East terrorists who use schools and daycare centers to create human shields, except that in those cases, the "shields" could be complicit)

Also... regarding AOJ...

An adult in close enough proximity to a small, screaming child to get angry constitutes ability and opportunity. It takes few steps to close enough distance to actually carry out the threat... and the threat (stated intent), to me, constitutes jeopardy when made with both ability and opportunity being present.

If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), you need AOJ to be present before you can lawfully begin the beatdown so many have mentioned in their replies. If there is enough AOJ to justify the one, then a larger attacker displaying intent to carry out his threat could justify the use of deadly force (presuming woman-alone-with-child situation) given a physically-smaller defender.

I still say that a tactical withdrawal and reliance on technology for evidence is the best course of action, if possible. If not possible, then the gloves are off and you do whatever you have to do. If anyone is going to apply physical force to my kid, it's going to be her parents and it's going to be applied to her backside only... but the parents, not the dirtbag in walmart, decide when or even if that happens.

Blessings,
Bill