License, registration.....and religious status?

[historian]

I'll buy.

Maybe we can get Indyucky in on this, too...might be the first time in history where people of disparate religious beliefs showed up someplace with a bunch of guns without the intent to shoot each other!

Where are you at (The INGO Compound is vague, I heard that it is cropdusted frequently)? I know that Indi is all the way in a van down by the river (eating government cheese!), and I am in Funcie. If we can get together, that would be great!

 

[Route 45]

If there is anything I have learned on my short 41 years on this planet, it is that my understanding of my surroundings is imperfect.

When my friends hurt, I hurt. I will attempt to help in any way I can, even if means reaching out to something I'm not sure is there...(or even pretty sure isn't there).

There is common ground here. There is a better way. There is no need to widen the gap. While I am guilty of this in ways, I freely admit it...I am only asking the same of others.

Your intentions are awesome, but I think in most cases, you are asking too much. You are asking for reason where there can be none.

To quote Thomas Paine....

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."[h=1][/h]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Being damned is not the same as torture. Separation from God is damnation. I am not an expert in the Bible, but that was the message I got.

The Koran, and Mohammed, both state there is a Hell, and it is torturous. It is not, however, eternal. Those who go to Hell can still go to Paradise once they have paid for their sins through their suffering. Those with a mustard seed of faith or of good acts do not spend eternity in Hell. This, to me, seems much more consistent with a loving and merciful god. Mohammed also taught that adherence to the laws of Islam was judged based on your time and situation. That if you were witness to a prophet and overt miracles, a stricter faith and adherence to the laws was required of you then of someone centuries later who had weaker proofs and less access to direct truth. The statement goes roughly like, "if you follow me and keep 10% of the laws, you'll spend time in Hell. There will come a day where 10% will be sufficient for direct entry to Paradise."

PaulF, if I could recommend a book, read Karen Armstrong's History of God. It is a book ABOUT religion, not a religious book. Karen felt like a failure after failing to find what the thought was God as a Catholic nun, creating a sense of anger and resentment. When she researched and learned the history of religion, and the impact of modern science to attempting to make the mysterious literal, it changed her view and at least let her anger and resentment go. The book doesn't talk about that journey, its just the research she ended up with in her own quest for truth, and talks about much more than Abrahamic religion. Those with any or no religion tend to find it interesting and affirming to read.

 

[phylodog]

So, is she a whining *****, or is she within her rights? Make up your mind.

You can't see past your own nose because you are the one with the badge. I see you didn't say how you would feel about your wife being stopped and introduced to Islam. Interesting.
Various religions showing up to your door has nothing to do with any of this, and neither does the ridiculous "safe space" mentality of the idiot college students that have been in the news lately. This is a legitimate issue. If you can't see the danger in allowing armed agents of the state to promote their personal religion, then I can't help you.

It appears you're too emotionally upended by the "seriousness" of this situation to comprehend simply written statements. You are correct, you cannot help me nor can I help you.

I wish you luck.

 

[jamil]

It's hard for people with completely different world views to talk to each other. Everyone here shares an understanding of the English language (I'd wager Indiucky has a better understanding of various dialects). But we don't really understand what each other is saying because we interpret each others' words the way we understand them. Atheists just aren't going to convince the Christians, and the Christians just aren't going to convince the atheists. You guys can argue about this all day long. It can go one of two ways. You either agree to disagree agreeably, or you disagree to be agreeable about your disagreements. Some parts of the conversation seem to be headed towards the latter.

 

[MisterChester]

It's hard for people with completely different world views to talk to each other. Everyone here shares an understanding of the English language (I'd wager Indiucky has a better understanding of various dialects). But we don't really understand what each other is saying because we interpret each others' words the way we understand them. Atheists just aren't going to convince the Christians, and the Christians just aren't going to convince the atheists. You guys can argue about this all day long. It can go one of two ways. You either agree to disagree agreeably, or you disagree to be agreeable about your disagreements. Some parts of the conversation seem to be headed towards the latter.

You've summed up 98% of INGO's political discussions.

 

[LPMan59]

Karen Armstrong is an apologist hack. One of her books was enough.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

The difference being, neither Glock owners nor Seahawks fans have ever knocked on my door to tell me about it.

I don't so much mind the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS folks coming to my door once in a great while, but I do wish that they would learn to properly close our front gate on their way out. I don't know how many times they've let my dog get out.

 

[Route 45]

It appears you're too emotionally upended by the "seriousness" of this situation to comprehend simply written statements. You are correct, you cannot help me nor can I help you.

I wish you luck.

Emotional?

And still no word on the Islamic traffic stop scenario.

Very telling.

You stay safe out there, hero.

 

[indiucky]

I'll buy.

Maybe we can get Indyucky in on this, too...might be the first time in history where people of disparate religious beliefs showed up someplace with a bunch of guns without the intent to shoot each other!

I'm in....

For a believer I can still be kind of rough around the edges and do not fit into the mold as well as I should...Lord knows I am a work in progress as my humor is dark, my language salty, and my love of two glasses of bourbon on the rocks of an evening (for medicinal purposes of course) puts me in an awkward spot with some of my fellow believers....

To me you are proof that "the word of God is written on the hearts of men".....I believe that and the fact that you may not believe that affects me not, nor changes my opinion of you..I appreciate that you allow me that same courtesy...Bless you for that....

 

[phylodog]

Emotional?

And still no word on the Islamic traffic stop scenario.

Very telling.

You stay safe out there, hero.

Muslims don't scare me, nor do Jews, Satanists, Catholics, Atheists or Agnostics. I'm not easily offended and thankfully neither is my wife. Had this happened to my wife, regardless of the religion brought up, I'd have suggested she file a complaint if she didn't like it and that would have been the end of it. I don't have time to be petty and get worked up over silly ****. Taking this incident the the level of a lawsuit is beyond ridiculous, apparently the ACLU is feeling rather insignificant these days and is scraping the bottom of the barrel for attention and funding.

 

[jamil]

Muslims don't scare me, nor do Jews, Satanists, Catholics, Atheists or Agnostics. I'm not easily offended and thankfully neither is my wife. Had this happened to my wife, regardless of the religion brought up, I'd have suggested she file a complaint if she didn't like it and that would have been the end of it. I don't have time to be petty and get worked up over silly ****. Taking this incident the the level of a lawsuit is beyond ridiculous, apparently the ACLU is feeling rather insignificant these days and is scraping the bottom of the barrel for attention and funding.

 

[Mark 1911]

Here you illustrate very well the issues that non-believers face on a daily basis.

-You seem to talk past me, not to me, disregarding any attempt I have made to bridge our gap from my end.

Why do you think I am talking past you? Why do you think you are the only one trying to bridge the gap? Do you think you are the only person who has ever had a rough time of finding God? I could have chosen not to respond to you at all, but I did respond. Maybe I care more than you think I do. And if that is true, maybe God cares more than you think he does.

-You assert that your world view is correct, and there is no possibility that you could be wrong, even though there are billions of human beings that hold sincere views that run counter to yours.

I do know that reality is not defined by the numbers of non-believers v believers. Something can not simultaneously be both true and false.

-You dismiss the sincerity of my (dis)belief.

Not at all. I believe you are sincere. Are you dismissing my sincerity? Why couldn't I just be one happy person who is sincerely trying to share something with someone who appears to be looking for something. I could be wrong, but insincere I am not. I once heard a famous Christian preacher describe Christians as beggars just trying to tell other hungry people where to get some bread. Truth is, when we find something that makes us happy, our first instinct is to share it with others. That's all.

-You dismiss the sincerity of my attempts to commune with your deity.

I think you have given up. I don't pretend to know why. I do not doubt your sincerity, or I wouldn't bother replying to you.

-You dismiss the the discrepancy of the religious message at its root: be penitent or be punished.

I don't see a discrepancy in the call to repentance to avoid punishment, but this is far from being the Christian message in its entirety, it is only one side of the coin, and it is the smaller one. Here we are talking about justice. In strict justice, none of us, not one, could stand before our creator and be justified. But there is a fundamental part of the Christian message that you have not even mentioned. God is just, but he is also merciful. We don't turn to God just because we want to avoid being punished, although that is a good reason. But we should turn to God because he loved us first, and wants us to love him in return. That in my view is the more motivating part of the Christian message, that God loves me, and wants my love. I understand that many people have a very difficult time with the concept of mercy. Some people can not accept forgiveness, somehow they don't see themselves as being worthy. Truth is, none of us are worthy, not one. God's mercy is totally gratuitous for all of us. But how can we consider what Christ did for us, the suffering and agony he endured for us, and not be filled with love for a man like that?

-What happens when someone does all the things they are told to do, and they don't experience the results they are told to expect? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing and expecting a different result?

Perhaps. But maybe there is something fundamental that is missing, maybe its more than just doing something because you are told, but doing something because you want it, long for it, because of love, because I can never do enough to give back to someone who died for me. I don't know you, I can't presume to know how you can overcome your difficulties. I do know without exception that Jesus Christ is the answer to every problem we encounter in life, even when things seem impossible. To me it seems more insane to quit. What hope can there possibly be under that scenario?

Listen to me man...really listen: I have tried. Over and over and over and over and over and...

...nothing.

It is enough to drive a sane person crazy. "Just do this...Jesus listens"

Your methods don't work for me...now what?

There is a verse in Proverbs, 18:19, depending on the translation, goes something like, "A brother helped by his brother is like a strong city". There is always hope unless we quit. There are many people around who care about your difficulties, maybe they can't solve them for you, but if we allow ourselves to be helped by those who truly care. I don't know what you are expecting when you talk to God, I don't know what you are expecting him to do to prove his love for you. All I know is that he hears you and he loves you more than you will ever know, and he is always reaching his hand out to you, often times through the words of total strangers. There is some barrier between you and God. I don't know you, I don't know what it is, but I do know that it can be overcome.

The Christian answer is eternal torture at the hands of the loving "God" that I have never been any to find hide nor hair of...that isn't a misreading of the message, that is the message.

The Christian message is not eternal torture, it is the remedy to it.

Well, I think it's bull****. All of it. Everything that lives will die. Men don't rise from the grave. Men do create gods to fill voids in their knowledge and their experience. We have done it since the beginning of time, and I see no reason why yours in any different.

It is not BS. The body dies, the soul does not. Christian teaching is that men do rise from the grave, some to eternal happiness, some to eternal suffering. So in a sense our eternal life has already begun. So there is always hope, but there is only one reason for that hope either in this world or the next.

You can PM me anytime if you wish to continue the discussion. I know people, including myself, who have got past similar difficulties. I'd be happy to introduce you. Not that you would be interested. But I would be when and if you were. We are not in this alone.

 

[Denny347]

Muslims don't scare me, nor do Jews, Satanists, Catholics, Atheists or Agnostics. I'm not easily offended and thankfully neither is my wife. Had this happened to my wife, regardless of the religion brought up, I'd have suggested she file a complaint if she didn't like it and that would have been the end of it. I don't have time to be petty and get worked up over silly ****. Taking this incident the the level of a lawsuit is beyond ridiculous, apparently the ACLU is feeling rather insignificant these days and is scraping the bottom of the barrel for attention and funding.

Indeed. Another person looking to get free money.

 

[Denny347]

Who's right and who's wrong? I guess we will find out when we are dead...

 

[historian]

For a believer I can still be kind of rough around the edges and do not fit into the mold as well as I should...Lord knows I am a work in progress as my humor is dark, my language salty, and my love of two glasses of bourbon on the rocks of an evening (for medicinal purposes of course) puts me in an awkward spot with some of my fellow believers....

To me you are proof that "the word of God is written on the hearts of men".....I believe that and the fact that you may not believe that affects me not, nor changes my opinion of you..I appreciate that you allow me that same courtesy...Bless you for that....

The thing is, I've been saved since I was three, and you probably have a better handle believing than I do.

 

[jamil]

Who's right and who's wrong? I guess we will find out when we are dead...

The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

[seagullplayer]

The woman was pulled over because she broke the law.

The officer gave her a warning.

Sounds like the policeman shared his personal beliefs after.

Sounds like he was exercising his right to free speech.

Surely one doesn't loose their rights depending on who the employer is?

No government mandate here. Nothing to see but greedy lawyers and gullible leftest.

Had this been my wife? If she agreed with the officer she would have had prayer with him.
If she disagreed she might have taken her Bible out and tried to correct him, then had prayer for him.

Don't worry, Big brother is not out making you find God.

"But he is being paid with MY tax money!"

Big deal, some of MY tax money is going to kill babies.

 

[steveh_131]

The woman was pulled over because she broke the law.

The officer gave her a warning.

Sounds like the policeman shared his personal beliefs after.

Sounds like he was exercising his right to free speech.

When an officer pulls someone over, that person is being forcibly detained. As far as she knows, if she leaves before the cop tells her to go she could easily end up dead.

Telling someone your beliefs while they are detained under threat of death is not OK. I am a Christian and fully believe in evangelism and I still don't think it's ok.

On the other hand, motive matters. I don't think the cop saw it this way, he was trying to do something kind. Overall, I think I agree with phylo. He should be disciplined, but there was no injury to this woman of any kind and a lawsuit is excessive.

 

[Hohn]

As a Christian, I support the spreading of the Word, we're instructed to do so. But it should be consensual and should not be done by someone in a authoritative position like this.

Agreed. When I was a military officer, proselytizing those under my authority was properly considered 'undue influence' and is very much frowned upon.