Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[PatriotPride]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

That's almost laughable...but you're a cop, so it's not at all. If a police officer points a firearm at a person for an unjustified reason (and YES, it has happened before), then I feel no pity if they get shot.

If ANYONE breaks into my home and points a gun at me, then they're gonna get smoked. It's not rocket science.

what if they have no head left? we arent aiming for their legs.

Good point. Hit what you can and hope for the best

 

[USMC_0311]

HOW, specifically.

...... I was asking for you to step into the shoes of the guy breaching the door to be greeted by a guy with a rifle.

How on earth do you think that is changing the premise?


Are you claiming that they didn't go through the door?

I won't step into those shoes because if I know I am going to be greeted by a guy with a rifle I will not do it that way.

I can't answer because there is no way I can imagine that I would be forced into a sistuation like that. Going back to that silly lawful order thing.

I bet if you told them (SWAT) that a guy was waiting for them on the otherside of the door with a rifle they would not have gone in like that. I would be surprised if they would go in at all.

Technically they never did make it all the way through the door. The guy with the pistol barely made the porch.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Seriously??? This is still going on?? *looks into crystal ball* This will not end well...


IBTL!!

 

[youngda9]

I won't step into those shoes because if I know I am going to be greeted by a guy with a rifle I will not do it that way.

Can't see through doors.

I can't answer because there is no way I can imagine that I would be forced into a sistuation like that. Going back to that silly lawful order thing.

If you were a swat team member, you would have no idea of the legalities of your orders, all you would know is that you had a warrant signed by a judge which sounds like it makes everything entirely legal at the time.

 

[youngda9]

Seriously??? This is still going on?? *looks into crystal ball* This will not end well...

It's gone circular...I can't take it anymore.

 

[PatriotPride]

What, is it really so difficult to understand? We're not questioning them because they're cops. We're questioning them because they already lied again and again!!

Save your breath. You can't reason with some people.

What is so hard to understand?
The cops in this case are now KNOWN LIARS.
That is not an assumption!
They themselves have brought suspicion on their own words.
The planted gun in this case is totaly plausable.

I will agree that they have proven themselves to be liars and deserving of true justice. I'm not sure I subscribe to the planted gun theory, but as they are murdering liars, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[USMC_0311]

Can't see through doors.

If you were a swat team member, you would have no idea of the legalities of your orders, all you would know is that you had a warrant signed by a judge which sounds like it makes everything entirely legal at the time.

And thats the problem, blindly follow orders. Pat them on back, give em an at-a-boy, legal? I would love to congrat each member of that fine team on a job well done. It wasn't morally right or even constutionally but it was a legal shoot good job.

 

[youngda9]

And thats the problem, blindly follow orders. Pat them on back, give em an at-a-boy, legal? I would love to congrat each member of that fine team on a job well done. It wasn't morally right or even constutionally but it was a legal shoot good job.

You keep claiming that somehow a raid team member would know that an order signed by a judge is illegal. Yet you STILL haven't explained to us HOW they would know, or the process by which they would begin to know such things for each judge signed order they have.

After the fact we can argue if the raid was wrong. But at the time they had a signed warrant. What the heck more do they need. They get the warrant which makes the action legal and do the job.

 

[USMC_0311]

You keep claiming that somehow a raid team member would know that an order signed by a judge is illegal. Yet you STILL haven't explained to us HOW they would know, or the process by which they would begin to know such things.

After the fact we can argue if the raid was wrong. But at the time they had a signed warrent. What the heck more do they need. They get the warrant which makes the action legal and do the job.

I claim nothing, I am just stating my opinion on how things SHOULD go. They are police, professional investigators right? Then they can figure out to verify the warrant is legal. Hell a little internet search might do the job, they can verify address, names, probable cause. If they are being sent in with the possibility of pulling the trigger don't law abiding citizens deserve a double check of the facts?

You want me to say hey these guys are legal they were just doing there job. If their job is to follow oders blindly ok good job guys. Other than them being bumbling idiots who have no business on a SWAT team I really don't care if they had legal authority. My problem is how it got to the point of a dynamic entry on service of a warant. That was no-knock raid in book. So you don't want to blame the cops on the SWAT team, who do blame. You said it should never happend. If it should have never happened why is legal. No the cops don't get a pass on this from me legal or not.

 

[youngda9]

I claim nothing, I am just stating my opinion on how things SHOULD go. They are police, professional investigators right? Then they can figure out to verify the warrant is legal. Hell a little internet search might do the job, they can verify address, names, probable cause. If they are being sent in with the possibility of pulling the trigger don't law abiding citizens deserve a double check of the facts?

That investigation work was all done prior writing up the cause for the warrant...which was obviously convincing enough that the judge signed it...making it legal for the swat team to act. How can you not understand this.

You keep claiming that you would not follow these illegal orders. But if you were a swat team guy the signed judge order makes it legal for them to act. Swat team members are not lawyers nor do they have a team of constitutional scholars with them to question the constitutionality of judge signed warrants...if it's the constitutionality of such warrants in general that you are arguing.

You want me to say hey these guys are legal they were just doing there job.

They had a warrant, that is a legal document saying they can act. They did their job very poorly, but they had legal authority to do so per the warrant.

My problem is how it got to the point of a dynamic entry on service of a warant. That was no-knock raid in book. So you don't want to blame the cops on the SWAT team, who do blame. You said it should never happend. If it should have never happened why is legal. No the cops don't get a pass on this from me legal or not.

There is enough blame to go all around:
The investigators should have realized that they could pick him up on the street and a swat team action wasn't needed. If they wanted to search the property they could have applied for a warrant and done that peacefully after having Jose in custody.
The Judge should have questioned that as well and requested that alternate methods be attempted before trying dynamic entry on a residence.
The entry team had legal authority to do the raid. They did it poorly, used bad tactics, they shot too much, and they tried to cover up their incompetence.

 

[USMC_0311]

That investigation work was all done prior writing up the cause for the warrant...which was obviously convincing enough that the judge signed it...making it legal for the swat team to act. How can you not understand this.

Its not that I don't undertand it, I don't think that is the way it should be done. Convinicing enough for a judge? You get involved much in local politics? Come to Anderson and you can get a feel for it.
The investigation work was not done by the SWAT team. Thats what I would like see changed. They could have verified a number of things before serving the warrant. They had the time to do it.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Actually, somewhere I read a report from the lead man in the SWAT team, stating Guerena was holding his AR muzzle toward the floor when they broke in. They looked at each other, Guerena started to raise the rifle, the officer opened fire.

Of course this comes from the same agency that claimed the police shields were riddled with bullets, and a lot of other crap, so take it with a grain of salt the size of something really large.

Whatever. I don't care whether he was pointing a weapon at them. Reports show clearly he didn't know he was facing police, who failed to identify themselves properly, did not give him time to wake and reach the door before initiating violence. The warrant was unjustified and all 'evidence' perfectly legal. Serving the warrant was done in a way that maximized violence rather than avoiding it. They could've knocked on the door and waited. They could've stopped him in the street, or while he was walking home from his car. They could have done this in any number of ways besides playing soldier. The way I see it, the police created the situation therefore the police are responsible for murder.

That said.. I'm not at all surprised to read this news..

A search warrant is for the property not the person, and the courts have ruled that 15-20 seconds is all that Law Enforcement have to wait to make entry during a knock and announce. As for the claim that they didn't Identify themselves, well that is B.S. you can clearly hear it on the video right after the siren on the SWAT vehicle is sounded. The problem with how this was handled does not lay with the officers executing the search warrant, they acted professionally and properly delt with a deadly force situation. The blame lays with the Detectives who filed for the search warrant in the first place and the judge who signed off on it. It is a shame when things go bad like this, but point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get shot!!

 

[FCSD 23-18]

You keep claiming that somehow a raid team member would know that an order signed by a judge is illegal. Yet you STILL haven't explained to us HOW they would know, or the process by which they would begin to know such things for each judge signed order they have.

After the fact we can argue if the raid was wrong. But at the time they had a signed warrant. What the heck more do they need. They get the warrant which makes the action legal and do the job.

This, all day long!! At the time of service the action was 100% legal

 

[FCSD 23-18]

That investigation work was all done prior writing up the cause for the warrant...which was obviously convincing enough that the judge signed it...making it legal for the swat team to act. How can you not understand this.

You keep claiming that you would not follow these illegal orders. But if you were a swat team guy the signed judge order makes it legal for them to act. Swat team members are not lawyers nor do they have a team of constitutional scholars with them to question the constitutionality of judge signed warrants...if it's the constitutionality of such warrants in general that you are arguing.

They had a warrant, that is a legal document saying they can act. They did their job very poorly, but they had legal authority to do so per the warrant.




There is enough blame to go all around:
The investigators should have realized that they could pick him up on the street and a swat team action wasn't needed. If they wanted to search the property they could have applied for a warrant and done that peacefully after having Jose in custody.
The Judge should have questioned that as well and requested that alternate methods be attempted before trying dynamic entry on a residence.
The entry team had legal authority to do the raid. They did it poorly, used bad tactics, they shot too much, and they tried to cover up their incompetence.

I was under the impression that there was no arrest warrant, but that they were serving a search warrant on the residence. They were yelling search warrant at the door prior to entry.

 

[jsharmon7]

this in my opinion is the main problem, almost all you cops will rally blindly behind cops you have never met and assume they are telling the truth just because your in the same line of work. thats the biggest bunch of BS ive ever seen. I dont think he was pointing a gun at them, i do think they planted it. I do wish the total outcome would have been different with him walking out.

And all you guys on the internet will rally blindly against the cops you have never met and assume they are lying because of the uniform they wear. That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen. I say they DIDN'T plant a gun on him for the same reason you say they DID plant a gun on him. Neither one of us has a shred of proof to think that way, yet here we are. Round and round it goes...

 

[USMC_0311]

... they acted professionally and properly delt with a deadly force situation. .... but point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get shot!!

Now that's funny, made me spit Mtn Dew all over the computer again.
So you got to view the helmet cam? You know the one were Jose was pointing a gun?

acted professionally?

 

[PatriotPride]

And all you guys on the internet will rally blindly against the cops you have never met and assume they are lying because of the uniform they wear. That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen. I say they DIDN'T plant a gun on him for the same reason you say they DID plant a gun on him. Neither one of us has a shred of proof to think that way, yet here we are. Round and round it goes...

Nope. There is no assumption that the police lied during this "investigation" into this murder. It's been nothing but lies and incompetence from the start. Interesting, though, that you admit that you rally behind the police because of the uniform they wear. Pot...meet kettle.

All in all...it would be nice, for once, to see a police department admit their wrongdoing. Wishful thinking? Most likely---it's indicative of the police state that we live in.

 

[USMC_0311]

And all you guys on the internet will rally blindly against the cops you have never met and assume they are lying because of the uniform they wear. That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever seen. I say they DIDN'T plant a gun on him for the same reason you say they DID plant a gun on him. Neither one of us has a shred of proof to think that way, yet here we are. Round and round it goes...

I don't rally blindly against anyone.

I have all the proof needed to form my opinion.

 

[jsharmon7]

Nope. There is no assumption that the police lied during this "investigation" into this murder. It's been nothing but lies and incompetence from the start. Interesting, though, that you admit that you rally behind the police because of the uniform they wear. Pot...meet kettle.

By "pot meet kettle," do you mean me pointing out the parallels between what E5 accuses "us" of doing and what you and several others routinely do? If that's what you got out of it then you understood me perfectly. It's the same thing no matter which angle you look at it. You can accuse me of defending these guys simply because of their uniform and I can accuse you guys of assuming the worst simply because of their uniform. E5 can say they planted a gun and I can say they didn't. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[PointFiveO]

They shot wayyy too many shots, period. If he pointed a gun at them I can see why they were cleared of any wrongdoing, but that was pure uneccessary use of force. Not to mention, did you see the breach and entry? It looked like a crowd of children. And what about the officer that pushes his way in to get a one handed pistol into the fray, is that standard procedure? Come on... But really, they hit their siren and they were yelling about who they were, so the last thing he should have done was go for his firearm.

Whoever claimed they didn't announce who they were must have MUCH better ears than I do. Because I
can hear the unit at the door screaming AND knocking, I just can't hear what they are saying. One would assume they are identifying themselves.