Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[youngda9]

Don't dodge the question. You claimed you would disobey this warrant since you felt it was illegal. Explain the process you would have yourself, and each of your fellow SWAT team members, go through in order to determine if the order was legal or not?

 

[orange]

This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."

The problem here is that the police have already lied multiple times. Their shields were riddled with bullets, they saw a muzzle flash and fired on it, what else? Dupnik continues spewing crap about Guerena's having been part of a violent organization, that he expected to be arrested for murder, but the cops' lawyer states that nobody would've been arrested had the police entered peacefully, and the search warrant affidavit paints a picture of a man guilty of no more than being seen in the company of a brother, who had drug violations... the credibility of the police is now nonexistent.

Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.

Agreed with this. It would settle the question nicely.

 

[ckcollins2003]

You're a cop entering the house on a raid...you know the suspect is an Iraq war veterain Marine. You bust through the door with your firearm at the ready position. Next thing you see is Jose coming around the corner with his rifle in hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).

What is your move? Do you check to see if the safety is on/off? Do you hope he doesn't raise the weapon and shoot you in the blink of an eye...because he will before you can even get a shot back(action beats re-action). You might kill him shooting back, but he might already have killed you as well. Do you shout for him to drop the weapon, because as you're saying drop...you might be catching bullets in the teeth.

So armchair quarterbacks, what say you?

If you're answer is anything but shoot the guy with a rifle then you might just be dead.

I am claiming the fact that the rifle was on-safe is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT. All of you guys puffing out your chest and shouting "Marine", "trained Marine", "United States Marine", "need I say more", etc. are not facing the realities that this "trained Marine" could raise the gun while flipping off the safety and put round(s) into your head before you could react fast enough to shoot back.

If the police come through the door and the gun isn't falling or already on the ground...expect to get shot.

Hypothetically speaking I think you should stick to the facts of the case and not worry about what could have happened if blah blah blah did this or that instead of what the reports state.

Nowhere does it say this United States Marine pointed his weapon at them and nowhere is it ever implied since his weapon was on safe.

"Hypothetically" speaking the SWAT team that entered this Marine's house shouldn't have ever served a no-knock warrant on it. If you break into a Marine's home you already know he has weapons and is trained to use them. You know that these days 99% of all Marines have seen combat and are more than capable of shooting an enemy.

Your fault with your statement here is that you don't care what actually happened. You take the words of the police who busted down someone's door without identifying themselves properly before entry over the man who was killed and fought to defend the exact right that you practice by being on the internet, and the right for the police to enter his home without a warrant... funny how **** works isn't it?

So "hypothetically" speaking I think you should turn your little scenario over and put yourself into this Marine's boots during this situation as well. WTF would you do if someone was breaking into your home? You're on a gun forum for a reason Bucko so obviously you're going to say you'd grab your weapon and hope for the best. Right? Otherwise I think you're in the wrong place.

So you can take your "hypothetical" situation and shove it. Stick to the facts and put yourself on both sides.

Yes, I'd shoot if I were the cop and put in that situation, but you know what? I'd never serve a no-knock warrant on a Marine's home. Simply because I know what's going to come of it before we'd ever reach that door. And if I were in the Marine's situation, I'd have been firing as soon as that door handle started to turn. I'd have taken at least 2 with me.

 

[youngda9]

Nowhere does it say this United States Marine pointed his weapon at them and nowhere is it ever implied since his weapon was on safe.

Re-read my post, I said it was in his hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).

You know that these days 99% of all Marines have seen combat and are more than capable of shooting an enemy.

People are claiming they didn't know he was a Marine. I don't know for sure...can anyone cite something?

Your fault with your statement here is that you don't care what actually happened.

All you or I know what actually happened is on the video...have you watched it? My scenereo starts as soon as the cop enters the door. Unless you are denying the fact that Jose had a gun in his hands then it is the scenario that the police were presented with inside the house.

You take the words of the police who busted down someone's door without identifying themselves properly before entry over the man who was killed and fought to defend that exact right.

The police are the only ones talking after the incident. We can't get Jose's side to this. But I guess you can claim, blindly so, that he must not have pointed the weapon because he was a Marine. I don't know either way since I wasn't there, were you?

So "hypothetically" speaking I think you should turn your little scenario over and put yourself into this Marine's boots during this situation as well. WTF would you do if someone was breaking into your home?

Do I know they are the cops? (we don't know if Jose did or not)

You're on a gun forum for a reason Bucko so obviously you're going to say you'd grab your weapon and hope for the best. Right? Otherwise I think you're in the wrong place.

If I knew for sure that it was the cops I would set down my weapon, or not grab it in the first place(that would be the safest thing, clearly). If I thought it was a home invasion I would be defending myself and my family.

 

[E5RANGER375]

This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."

Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.

this in my opinion is the main problem, almost all you cops will rally blindly behind cops you have never met and assume they are telling the truth just because your in the same line of work. thats the biggest bunch of BS ive ever seen. I dont think he was pointing a gun at them, i do think they planted it. I do wish the total outcome would have been different with him walking out.

 

[E5RANGER375]

cops and citizens dying over weed. how stupid. anyone who fights in this war on drugs is a patsy. your a tool thats being used for a larger wrong and you and us are the ones dying for NOTHING! this is so BS.

 

[youngda9]

this in my opinion is the main problem, almost all you cops will rally blindly behind cops you have never met and assume they are telling the truth just because your in the same line of work. thats the biggest bunch of BS ive ever seen. I dont think he was pointing a gun at them, i do think they planted it. I do wish the total outcome would have been different with him walking out.

Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.

Planted gun, really now. Is the wife claiming that he didn't have a gun in his hands, or one at all in the house, or that the police planted a weapon. Please point me to the interview or quotes from her saying such things?

 

[ckcollins2003]

People are claiming they didn't know he was a Marine. I don't know for sure...can anyone cite something?

They have to do a background check before they can get a warrant correct? Obviously it's going to state some military service. If not, they didn't do a check and most likely didn't have a warrant.

All you or I know what actually happened is on the video...have you watched it? My scenereo starts as soon as the cop enters the door. Unless you are denying the fact that Jose had a gun in his hands then it is the scenario that the police were presented with inside the house.

We don't need scenario's. What information you get from the video is useless. I've seen the youtube video and it doesn't show inside the home. Thus making it irrelevant, not only that but making up scenario's is just utter incompetence.

The police are the only ones talking after the incident. We can't get Jose's side to this. But I guess you can claim, blindly so, that he must not have pointed the weapon because he was a Marine. I don't know either way since I wasn't there, were you?

There's a reason all of these service men on here are telling you that he did not point that weapon at them while the weapon was on safe. That's because we're all trained to put that weapons system in "go" mode as it's raised.

Obviously I wasn't there, but neither were you so maybe you should do exactly what you're implying and stop with the little "scenario" bull**** and taking the cops side. Try sticking up for the man who put his life on the line to give you this right to disgrace his name while he is buried, without any evidential facts that it was justified.

As I stated before, I'm obviously not defending the police nor am I saying they are lying, but something is wrong if SWAT actually gets a court order to break into a Marine's home.

Do I know they are the cops? (we don't know if Jose did or not)


If I knew for sure that it was the cops I would set down my weapon, or not grab it in the first place(that would be the safest thing, clearly).

Obviously if you're in his shoes you don't know they are cops... just as he didn't. It's called a no-knock warrant for a reason *put stupid man insult here*

 

[youngda9]

They have to do a background check before they can get a warrant correct? Obviously it's going to state some military service. If not, they didn't do a check and most likely didn't have a warrant.

People claimed that the team itself did not know he was a Marine. Can you provide evidence of what the team knew, I haven't seen any only speculation.

We don't need scenario's. What information you get from the video is useless. I've seen the youtube video and it doesn't show inside the home. Thus making it irrelevant, not only that but making up scenario's is just utter incompetence.

I made up no "scenario"...again, reading comprehension.
Fact: The police entered the home.
They claim the met a guy with a rifle in his hands(if you claim they are lying then we are done here, I can't play liar liar pants on fire). Police will shoot when confronted with a weapon(pointed or not most likely)

There's a reason all of these service men on here are telling you that he did not point that weapon at them while the weapon was on safe. That's because we're all trained to put that weapons system in "go" mode as it's raised.

And they may be right. But if you are facing a swat team and your weapon isn't falling to or already on the floor expect to get shot.

Obviously I wasn't there, but neither were you so maybe you should do exactly what you're implying and stop with the little "scenario" bull**** and taking the cops side. Try sticking up for the man who put his life on the line to give you this right to disgrace his name while he is buried, without any evidential facts that it was justified.

Again, there was no scenario outside of what happened(inless you're going to claim that he didn't have a gun in his hands). I am not going to blindly take the side of either guy in uniform like you are. Much respect for Marines and Cops...but not blind admiration.

As I stated before, I'm obviously not defending the police nor am I saying they are lying.

You just chastized me for "taking the cops side"

but something is wrong if SWAT actually gets a court order to break into a Marine's home.

Marines must be off limits from police action.

Obviously if you're in his shoes you don't know they are cops... just as he didn't.

The police announced their presense outside their home prior to entry, there is debate to if they did it well enough and if Jose got the message that the cops were outside. Did you even watch the video. Try and educate yourself some prior to forming an opinion.

It's called a no-knock warrant for a reason *put stupid man insult here*

Whatch the video...with the sound on.

 

[Hotdoger]

Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.

Planted gun, really now. Is the wife claiming that he didn't have a gun in his hands, or one at all in the house, or that the police planted a weapon. Please point me to the interview or quotes from her saying such things?

What is so hard to understand?
The cops in this case are now KNOWN LIARS.
That is not an assumption!
They themselves have brought suspicion on their own words.
The planted gun in this case is totaly plausable.

 

[USMC_0311]

Don't dodge the question. You claimed you would disobey this warrant since you felt it was illegal. Explain the process you would have yourself, and each of your fellow SWAT team members, go through in order to determine if the order was legal or not?

I never dodged the question. SWAT is not needed to serve warrants, pretty simple.

Go start another thread with your made up facts and what if's. I promise I will not post in it.

Now you get a lesson my gunny gave me a few years ago. It's called the 7 P's
Prior Proper Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance

If you think it right to use SWAT to serve a warrant then every member should be involved in the investigation. Addresses, names, crimes all verified. You want to play army and pull the trigger thats they way it should be done. No one should be weapons free without consequences.

 

[RockofStrength]

I would also like to see those helmet cams, particularly now that the investigation appears to be complete and a verdict reached.


As to the rapidly disintegrating remainder of the thread...

Seeing all the facts of the case, I cannot see the SWAT team's justification for opening fire. They are, when acting in their official capacity as officers, required to put their lives in greater jeopardy than a standard citizen in order to reduce the harm done to innocents and to the rights of citizens. They do not, as you or I would, have the right to see a gun and light him up like the Fourth of July without any other provocation, especially given their home-invading circumstances. Any reasonable man, innocent or guilty, would have responded to the sudden assault on his home with the means to defend himself at the ready and the SWAT attitude of "see gun, open fire" as SOP resulted in the very bailiwick we now see before us.

I understand the need to keep our officers safe, and I hope that they have the best means available to do so, but only if they do not trump the primary responsibility of all decent LEOs: Citizen Safety. I'm not arguing that I wouldn't have done the same if I had seen a man pointing a rifle at me when I was invading his home, but I am arguing that such a reaction would not be legally or morally justifiable. They should have been condemned for firing unprovoked and slaying a citizen of the United States without reasonable cause. It doesn't matter if he was the highest ranking Columbian drug lord in the country, if he didn't respond with violence they should have arrested him peacefully.

The rifle safety is primarily relevant to prove that he could not have opened fire on the officers, as they initially claimed. All other assumptions, no matter how logically sound, are only assumptions. I understand that his training may have resulted in thus and thus, but no one besides Jose himself could say exactly what was going through his mind at the time or why his safety was still on.

 

[youngda9]

I never dodged the question. SWAT is not needed to serve warrants, pretty simple.

Yes you did. You said you would disobey the un-lawful order.

You keep coming back with swat teams are not needed...that is a different issue/topic.

If you were on the swat team how in the heck would you and your team-mates know if a judge issued ordered was un-lawful...explain the process you all would go through to determine this.

 

[orange]

Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.

What, is it really so difficult to understand? We're not questioning them because they're cops. We're questioning them because they already lied again and again!!

 

[youngda9]

What is so hard to understand?
The cops in this case are now KNOWN LIARS.
That is not an assumption!

Ok, but can you say 100% that they are lying in this case?

I am not taking the side of the cops, or the side of Jose. I DON'T KNOW what really went down, and NEITHER DO YOU.

All I'm saying is that once they were met by a guy with a gun inside the house shots were fired...I can understand why they would open fire if he had a gun in his hand. They did shoot way way way too much.

They themselves have brought suspicion on their own words.

Agreed.

The planted gun in this case is totaly plausable.

This IS an assumption.
But you might be right...got any evidence or statements to support your case here? Was it not his gun, did his wife claim he didn't have or use a gun? Otherwise it's just speculation. I would think if they did plant a gun that the wife would be claiming it to be so...is she?

 

[E5RANGER375]

Kind of like the way you rally against the cops? And make up your own version of what you think happened, "assume they are not telling the truth just because" they are cops.

Planted gun, really now. Is the wife claiming that he didn't have a gun in his hands, or one at all in the house, or that the police planted a weapon. Please point me to the interview or quotes from her saying such things?

its my duty as a good citizen to never take what the govt tells me at face value and fact. especially given their tract record at lying to the people. when we start doing that people start/continue abusing granted authority.

just like the police will take my word on something at face value and assume im innocent from the get go like the law says they should?

the gun being planted is just a theory. im allowed to think on my own. its certainly a possible option with a group of bumbling idiots I saw in the video and neglectful public servants who allow members of the public that they have filled with holes to just bleed out without allowing them proper medical care. the way this was botched, is anything really off the table as a possibility? i think not.

 

[youngda9]

What, is it really so difficult to understand? We're not questioning them because they're cops. We're questioning them because they already lied again and again!!

These questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.

You are saying that since they are liars that they:
(1) Opened fire on an un-armed man
(2) Shot that un-armed man 20+(?) times
(3) planted a gun
(4) with the safety off
(5) while the wife is not claiming that it isn't his gun or that it was planted

Rock on

 

[E5RANGER375]

if i was a resident of that city, i would be protesting and petitioning the law makers to start building a gallows for after the trial.

 

[gunowner930]

These questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.

You are saying that since they are liars that they:
(1) Opened fire on an un-armed man
(2) Shot that un-armed man 20+(?) times
(3) planted a gun
(4) with the safety off
(5) while the wife is not claiming that it isn't his gun or that it was planted

Rock on

^Ever step you mentioned has happened before in SWAT team raids. That's why there is speculation. Google: SWAT team shoots man with golf club.

There are some serious training issues in SWAT teams around the country, and that is assuming their own report is correct. But everybody seems to think SWAT teams are cool!!!

 

[USMC_0311]

These questions are now leaps to planting guns, gotcha.

You are saying that since they are liars that they:
(1) Opened fire on an un-armed man Just because a man is armed does not mean you get to shoot him.
(2) Shot that un-armed man 20+(?) times I bet only one officer had good enough view for sight picture. The rest just emptied their mags in a panic or "get me some" mentality
(3) planted a gun You saying this never happens?
(4) with the safety off - Again this proves incompetence.
(5) while the wife is not claiming that it isn't his gun or that it was planted No she claimed she did not know about it.

Rock on

Rock on