Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[youngda9]

the point is they were in HIS HOUSE!!! they did NOT properly identify themselves before they started shooting and they sucked at everything they even attempted there. then they left him to bleed out and refused him medical care. I PROMISE you that if someone enters my house uninvited the weapon WILL NOT be on safe.

Yes, and we are in complete agreement.

 

[PatriotPride]

the point is they were in HIS HOUSE!!! they did NOT properly identify themselves before they started shooting and they sucked at everything they even attempted there. then they left him to bleed out and refused him medical care. I PROMISE you that if someone enters my house uninvited the weapon WILL NOT be on safe.

Precisely. It really doesn't get any simpler than that. If you enter my home and do not identify yourself IMMEDIATELY...or better yet, PRIOR to entry, then your injuries/death are on YOUR head and your head alone.

End no-knock warrants, or we'll continue to witness these murders.

Cleared of wrong-doing? As far as I'm concerned, there is too much of a conflict of interest for their findings to be valid.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Precisely. It really doesn't get any simpler than that. If you enter my home and do not identify yourself IMMEDIATELY...or better yet, PRIOR to entry, then your injuries/death are on YOUR head and your head alone.

End no-knock warrants, or we'll continue to witness these murders.

Cleared of wrong-doing? As far as I'm concerned, there is too much of a conflict of interest for their findings to be valid.

what if they have no head left? we arent aiming for their legs.

 

[youngda9]

Precisely. It really doesn't get any simpler than that. If you enter my home and do not identify yourself IMMEDIATELY...or better yet, PRIOR to entry, then your injuries/death are on YOUR head and your head alone.

End no-knock warrants, or we'll continue to witness these murders.

Eventually they'll break into the wrong person's home...and that person will take out a few of the commandos. This is what it will take for the tactics to be re-thunk, sadly.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Eventually they'll break into the wrong person's home...and that person will take out a few of the commandos. This is what it will take for the tactics to be re-thunk, sadly.

then they will just call them (police) heros instead of tyrants. and the innocent homeowner will be labled an extremist who was a threat to the freedom of every single American so then they will need to ppass another law that takes away more freedoms to make the retards feel a false sense of security. thats why I NEVER wish for certain people to be killed. America is already full of streets with stupid peoples names on them. the last thing I want is to have to drive down martin luther king hood street to then make a turn onto barack hussein obama FREEway

 

[orange]

Eventually they'll break into the wrong person's home...and that person will take out a few of the commandos. This is what it will take for the tactics to be re-thunk, sadly.

I doubt that.
Instead the search warrant and other documentation will be sealed, and the suspect will be painted as a bad guy in the media. It will be a case of "well, only bad guys shoot at police!"

Exactly what's happening here..link to interview with the sheriff Dupnik.

My feeling is that the reason he came not to the door, but entered the hallway with an assault rifle pointed, the only reason none of us were shot, is because he forgot the safety was on. And by the time he realized, he was shot. But my feeling is the reason he came with that gun is that he thought we were there to arrest him for murder.

because he is part of a very violent organization, we considered it high risk.

 

[j706]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

 

[USMC_0311]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

You got the helmet cam video of him pointing the rifle?

 

[zallen1]

I'm new to INGO, and just wanted to add my 2 cents....

This is pure Bull****, what happened to tactics? There is no reason that police should be able to obtain a "no knock" warrant on a person with no criminal background and without having some serious evidence of illegal activity. These "urban commandos" ran in guns blazing when they could have apprehended the suspect out side of his home. IMO

 

[gunowner930]

Probe clears 5 SWAT-raid officers

^Here is an update with additional information from the same source that AZ Hunter originally posted.

as USMC_0311 has said, I'd like to see that helmet cam confirming the SWAT team's story.

So this SWAT team in Pima County was investigated by the Pima County Attorney's Office?

Here's a few snippets from the article

-SWAT team claimed to have announced themselves 15 sec prior to entry.

Did Guerena hear them? His wife didn't.

-The officers were mistaken in believing Guerena fired at them, and when Guerena raised his weapon at them, they had the shoot to defend themselves

Which is it? Was Geurena shooting, or did he just raise his weapon? How in the hell can they claim "defense" when they break into a man's home with no criminal record?

-Officer Garcia was the first to shoot because he feared for his life. Garcia's shot produced a muzzle flash, so they officers opened fire.

If this is true, then why didn't the SWAT team return fire in the direction of Garcia, you know where the muzzle flash came from.

Question for some of you grunts here that have cleared houses in Iraq and Afghanistan: If you observe what you believe to be a muzzle flash from a percieved enemy, do you return fire in the direction of that muzzle flash?

The article didn't mention anything about the SWAT team refusing to allow Geurena medical attention. I guess they don't get investigated for this. Will the circumstances of that search warrant be investigated? Will Dupnik (Dump) be investigated?

This whole situation stinks

 

[gunowner930]

Exactly what's happening here..link to interview with the sheriff Dupnik.

We've known that Dump is lying POS since the Tucson shootings in January.

 

[Tripp11]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

You must be a cop with a comment like this.

While I understand wanting to defend all of your brothers in blue, there are too many inconsistencies with the stories coming from this shooting to blindly proclaim, "Good News".

A member of our armed forces is dead and someone who appeared to have no serious criminal background. How can that be good news, ever?

 

[dross]

Was that supposed to be purple...I hope so because it was a very silly(to be nice) thing to say.

You are completely missing the point.

If you point your gun at a cop, they will shoot you.

That has nothing to do with the situation at hand...home invasion, traffic stop, etc. My issue is with your statement that the gun was "on SAFE" which the cops had no way of knowing. If a gun is pointed at a cop, or you, they/you sure as hell are not going to take the time to figure out if it is on safe and weather or not you should shoot. A gun pointed at anyone is a threat...expect to be treated with deadly force in return.

The actions leading up to the encounter have all sorts of issues and red-flags, yes. But at the point where they entered the house and were met with deadly force, they returned deadly force as trained and as expected. It isn't clear if they announced their presense and identified themselves very well so that may be a point of contension.

Waiting around to see if a gun is on safe is going to get you killed. The fact that his firearm was on safe is a moot point. It's as dumb as saying it was off safe but the magazine wasn't loaded or a round wasn't chambered(if that woud have been the case)...there is NO WAY for the police to know that in a dynamic situation while looking down the barrel of a rifle.

1. We don't know he pointed his weapon at them.
2. The reason the weapon being on safe matters is that it indicates that he didn't point it at them.
3. It appears very likely he didn't know they were cops.

I was in the Army eleven years. When my rifle is at the ready, my thumb is resting on the safe lever. When the weapon comes to my shoulder, I flick it to fire. I have to NOT do it on purpose, because thats the way I practiced for a long time.

If he had intended to shoot, I don't think his weapon would have been on safe.

 

[dross]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

I'll give you this: Anyone with half a brain should have known that's what the investigation would find.

Just like anyone with half a brain knows that if he'd shot the first guy when the door flew open - before he knew they were cops - he'd of never made it to trial and if he did, he'd of been convicted.

 

[USMC_0311]

You must be a cop with a comment like this.

.... How can that be good news, ever?

He may be a cop so he says. I wouldn't lump him in with the majority of the good cops on INGO though.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

point a gun at any legal gun owner and the person doing the pointing should be smoked

 

[japartridge]

Good news IMO. Anyone with half a brain should have known it was a legal justified shoot. Point a gun at a cop and you are gonna get smoked, not rocket science people.

ok so being shot, what was it seventy some times is OK? Being denied medical treatment is OK? if some one breaks into my house I'm going to use force! What they did was break into the mans house, no excuses, no prettying it up, they broke in; and then shot him for having the audacity to defend his family!

As everyone else has stated... not surprised at all with these findings....

 

[E5RANGER375]

You got the helmet cam video of him pointing the rifle?

he doesnt need it. if a fellow cop said it then its gospel even if he's never met them.


j706, you certainly dont do well at making friends here among the people your sworn to serve. hows it go for you on the street?

 

[INGunGuy]

I will withhold my comments as the last time I made them public I got suspended from the forum for a week.

INGunGuy

 

[youngda9]

1. We don't know he pointed his weapon at them.

All we can go by is what the reports say. Unless you have information otherwise. You can choose not to believe them(the police), that is your right also. I bet if he had a gun in hand he was ready to use it. Action beats re-action every single time, the cops have to take that into account when going into a dynamic situation such as a raid.

2. The reason the weapon being on safe matters is that it indicates that he didn't point it at them.

Maybe. You don't know how this guy, in a sleep induced state, reacted to this break-in under stress. Surely he could have forgot to flip off the safety. Maybe he was raising the gun and about to flip it off when he got shot. I haven't heard if the guy's seen combat. Maybe he flipped the safety off and as he was getting shot his hand flinched and flipped it back on safe, maybe his body twisted as he shot and he fell on his firearm and it switched off...stranger things have happened. All speculation...all we know is that the weapon was found on-safe. Doesn't mean that in .24 seconds he wasn't about to flip it off and start shooting.

3. It appears very likely he didn't know they were cops.

Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know.

I was in the Army eleven years. When my rifle is at the ready, my thumb is resting on the safe lever. When the weapon comes to my shoulder, I flick it to fire. I have to NOT do it on purpose, because thats the way I practiced for a long time.

But YOU are not HIM. Irrelivent.

If he had intended to shoot, I don't think his weapon would have been on safe.

Was he fully awake(?), well trained with un-deteriorated skills(?), battle tested, good under stress(?)

It will always be speculation. We don't really know how it went down inside the house.