Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[youngda9]

What's so rational about you premise? You made up a scenario I made up a response.

I don't get how you can justify the killing of Jose with the real facts we have. You don't even know the facts and you make then up as you go long.

It's REALITY...have you seen the video? Police breeched the door. Report says faced with a man with a gun. MWAG got shot.

 

[youngda9]

I think the cops tripped going into the door causing a ND and the rest joined in the cluster ****. Then they found the gun in the closet set it next to him and forgot to take the safety off.

So your opinion is based on something you made up about bumbling and dishonest police officers. Ok.

 

[USMC_0311]

Copied from post #50.


I feel like Bill Murray Groundhog Day?

You sound like him too.

Now if a goundhog pointed a weapon at you would you draw down and take a risk that he might shoot you?

If you want to change the premise of the OP start a new thread with all your what ifs.

 

[youngda9]

well even in regular units split second intel required you to act immediately or people die. with certain units in the military there are no clear cut orders. no commander holding your hand with you in the field telling you the precise way to accomplish your mission. they are the free thinkers of the military, and guess what? they are the ones who use their personal judgement in the split second to get it done. they dont need a babysitter. not all of the military is as cut and dry as you think and its a good thing.

I agree 100%. But the fact is that these guys did as they were told and entered the home through the front door as they were trained(they did it very poorly in many ways). What happened after that is based on their training. I think we can all agree with that. (Or maybe not if you just distrust everything reported from the police that happened out of sight of the camera)

USMC is claiming that he would have made his own hole in the house, would not have followed orders, and would not have done it how he was trained if he was on a police force(they go through doors, mostly). It's pure fantasy and completely irrelivent in this situation.

 

[youngda9]

If you want to change the premise of the OP start a new thread with all your what ifs.

You are completely off your rocker. Everything I have spoken of comes from news articles, police reports, and from watching the video.

 

[USMC_0311]

USMC is claiming that he would have made his own hole in the house, would not have followed orders, and would not have done it how he was trained if he was on a police force(they go through doors, mostly). It's pure fantasy and completely irrelivent in this situation.

Welcome to my world.

Whats so hard grasp about following lawful orders.

If I was on the police force (that swat team) I would have refused the orders.

I followed orders in Marines. I also disobeyed unlawful orders and got a butterbar kicked out for issueing the illegal order.

You paint it anyway you want. The bottom line is Jose did not have to die in the service of that warrant. I blame the police in this one.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I agree 100%. But the fact is that these guys did as they were told and entered the home through the front door as they were trained(they did it very poorly in many ways). What happened after that is based on their training. I think we can all agree with that.

USMC is claiming that he would have made his own hole in the house, would not have followed orders, and would not have done it how he was trained if he was on a police force(they go through doors, mostly). It's pure fantasy and completely irrelivent in this situation.

its not his fault he is well trained and knows what to do. in stark contrast to the bumbling cop idiots in that raid.

you keep hounding on the "orders" part. your mindset is in the wrong place. orders on how to execute an entry are fluid. there is no way to know at the start how it will finish. so if you wanna go clear a house and only follow your SOP's and "orders" to a T, then you and others are probly gonna die if anyone is shooting back. thats where training and being able to think on the move are imperative.

the objective is; X
you reach your objective in a way that minimizes friendly casualties and allows for a clean out. but also as a cop you have to make sure you dont kill innocent people or trample on their rights.

 

[USMC_0311]

its not his fault he is well trained and knows what to do. in stark contrast to the bumbling cop idiots in that raid

 

[youngda9]

its not his fault he is well trained and knows what to do. in stark contrast to the bumbling cop idiots in that raid

He is looking at it from his military training perspective...which is COMLPETELY IRRELEVENT IN THIS SITUATION...You should understand that E5.

This operation was handled by police trained personnel. This is not Fallujah, AZ cops do not put C4 on the wall and blow holes in residential homes...at least not yet anyways.

Police follow orders or they lose their job or are demoted. This is not a military squad out away from their commanding officers. This is a police force that is behing monitored by their superiors and video taped for all the world to see on youtube.

Fact: They lined up at the DOOR, either as trained or as commanded, and entered the home.

 

[E5RANGER375]

He is looking at it from his military training perspective...which is COMLPETELY IRRELEVENT IN THIS SITUATION...You should understand that E5.

This operation was handled by police trained personnel. This is not Fallujah, AZ cops do not put C4 on the wall and blow holes is residential homes...at least not yet anyways.

Police follow orders or they lose their job or are demoted. This is not a military squad out away from their commanding officers. This is a police force that is behing monitored by their superiors and video taped for all the world to see on youtube.

uhhhh, yeah cops do use it. welcome to the police state and latest violation of the constitution called SWAT teams. military who call themselves police to go around the law.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, cops losing their jobs and being demoted for not following orders? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. well damn, then someone needs to order them to stop drinking and driving, and robbing hookers. hell if thats all I knew it would take is an order, LOL

 

[youngda9]

Whats so hard grasp about following lawful orders.

If I was on the police force (that swat team) I would have refused the orders.

Ok, then 7 guys instead of 8 (or whatever # it was) would have entered the home through the front door.

Same end result.

And you are assuming, at the level of a swat team member, that you have a clue what orders are un-lawful and which are not. I doubt the team has legal cousel to advise them which orders are good and which ones are not.

 

[youngda9]

uhhhh, yeah cops do use it. welcome to the police state and latest violation of the constitution called SWAT teams. military who call themselves police to go around the law.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, cops losing their jobs and being demoted for not following orders? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. well damn, then someone needs to order them to stop drinking and driving, and robbing hookers. hell if thats all I knew it would take is an order, LOL

Heh, perhaps I should have said "repremanded"...nah, maybe "patted on the back" ?

 

[E5RANGER375]

Ok, then 7 guys instead of 8 (or whatever # it was) would have entered the home through the front door.

Same end result.

And you are assuming, at the level of a swat team member, that you have a clue what orders are un-lawful and which are not. I doubt the team has legal cousel to advise them which orders are good and which ones are not.

i sure as hell hope they have an idea! all they have to do is read the constitution. im truely shocked that so many cops that I consider to be good cops, even participate on a SWAT team. I view them as a direct violation of the constitution, but hey opinions are like butt holes and the constitution is just the ass wipe right?

 

[USMC_0311]

He is looking at it from his military training perspective...which is COMLPETELY IRRELEVENT IN THIS SITUATION...You should understand that E5.

This operation was handled by police trained personnel. This is not Fallujah, AZ cops do not put C4 on the wall and blow holes in residential homes...at least not yet anyways.

Police follow orders or they lose their job or are demoted. This is not a military squad out away from their commanding officers. This is a police force that is behing monitored by their superiors and video taped for all the world to see on youtube.

Fact: They lined up at the DOOR, either as trained or as commanded, and entered the home.

The training of the officers? They didn't look disiplined or well trained to me. Maybe not C4 but why not a flash bang. You don't need explosives to make a door. We have seen one tape and one fact we can see is that was anything but a stack. Music going on in the background? They really took this as a seriuos threat. **** poor trainig and leadership is the problem. Police shouldn't just follow orders blindly, I think they should be held accountable for their actions even if they were just following orders.

 

[jsharmon7]

I think the cops tripped going into the door causing a ND and the rest joined in the cluster ****. Then they found the gun in the closet set it next to him and forgot to take the safety off.

This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."

Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.

 

[USMC_0311]

This is the main problem with this (and similar) situations. You have absolutely zero proof (or reasonable suspicion even)that the cops planted the gun after shooting Jose or that the orders they followed were illegal. The cops have absolutely no proof either that Jose pointed the gun at them. This thread basically comes down to "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened." And then somebody else says "well for absolutely no reason, I think this is how it happened."

Did they have helmet cams or other similar devices on when they entered? If so, let's see it.

No I have no proof but I was just making that statement to make my point. Looks like I did.

They should have helmet cams on every officer invloved and I would like to see them also.

 

[youngda9]

i sure as hell hope they have an idea! all they have to do is read the constitution. im truely shocked that so many cops that I consider to be good cops, even participate on a SWAT team. I view them as a direct violation of the constitution, but hey opinions are like butt holes and the constitution is just the ass wipe right?

I highly doubt the team are constitutional scholars that question the legalitity and constitutionality of each order given. They know the warrant came from a judge and the order was given to them from their superiors. They then proceeded.

 

[USMC_0311]

I highly doubt the team are constitutional scholars that question the legalitity and constitutionality of each order given. They know the warrant came from a judge and the order was given to them from their superiors. They then proceeded.

And you have no problem with this?

 

[youngda9]

I highly doubt the team are constitutional scholars that question the legalitity and constitutionality of each order given. They know the warrant came from a judge and the order was given to them from their superiors. They then proceeded.

And you have no problem with this?

What solution are you proposing? You seem to be good at throwing darts, how about giving us a solution here.

Should the swat team have legal cousel in place to go research the legality of a judge signing the warrant? (sounds rather career limiting if you're one of the lawyers involved)

Should each member have their own legal cousel, at the cost of the taxpayers?

Should each swat member get time with the judge and the requesting parties, along with cousel, to discuss and understand all of the facts and exact timeline leading up to the signing of the warrant?

How much time should be allotted for each team member to get right with warrant and the proceding orders given? (the suspect could go to a different location while all of this swat team Constitutional research is going on)

 

[USMC_0311]

What solution are you proposing?

I don't know but maybe knock and wait?



I personally see very little use for a SWAT team serving warrants. A few exceptions for a barricaded lunitics or hostages. Even if they found trash bags full of marijuana I don't think it is worth anyones life in the name preserving evidence.