Legal Carry Question?

[Hemingway]

Guys, I'd like to hear what you experts say about the following. I'm laying out all of the facts as I know them. Some of them may not be applicable but I'm trying to be as thorough as possible.

Scenario:
A private (i.e. receives no state/gov funds), Christian school, located in Indianapolis is run by the co-located church. The school is a ministry of the church. The facility is comprised of a building that houses classrooms, a gymnasium and the large (1,100 seat) church auditorium. Both the school and the church share all of the buildings for their respective functions.

Monday through Friday is school. Sundays, of course, nothing but church services are held.




Question:
Can those that are attending church on Sunday and who possess LTCH and who are otherwise permitted under IN law to carry their weapon, carry their weapon on their person, on the property during church services?




Thanks in advance guys!

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

The law makes no exceptions for private / parochial schools vs. government schools.

A school is a school is a school. Also, according to IN law, a school is never not a school. If a school on a Monday in February, it's also a school on a Saturday in July.

So, if it's a school: Carry is always a no-go...unless authorized by the governing body of that school.

-J-

 

[Hemingway]

Interesting. What standard exactly does the governing body of the school exception have to rise to?

Is this something simple like getting a note from the principal? Does the school have to have a written policy? Does a list of certain people have to exist or can it be for everyone?

I have never heard of this exception.

 

[mrortega]

Interesting. What standard exactly does the governing body of the school exception have to rise to?

Is this something simple like getting a note from the principal? Does the school have to have a written policy? Does a list of certain people have to exist or can it be for everyone?

I have never heard of this exception.

I believe the "owner" of the school has to give permission. It would be the ruling body such as a board. In Catholic schools it would have to be the bishop of the diocese since he technically owns all the real estate in the diocese. The key words above are, "I believe." I am not an attorney.

 

[melensdad]

I believe the "owner" of the school has to give permission. It would be the ruling body such as a board. In Catholic schools it would have to be the bishop of the diocese since he technically owns all the real estate in the diocese. The key words above are, "I believe." I am not an attorney.

Again not an attorney, but in the Catholic Church I would bet it is the head person stationed at the property. So at the Catholic High School run by a community of nuns, I would bet it is the Mother Superior of the order. While at the local parish, I would bet it is the parish Priest. I believe the Bishop is too far up the ladder and too far removed physically to be the person of authority over the physical property, the person stationed at the property and designated its head, be it a Nun or a Priest, would likely be considered the 'authority' who would grant the permission. It would be very similar at an Orthodox or an Episcopalian parish as they have similar structures to the Catholic church.

At an independent Christian church I would bet it would be the Brother, Deacon, Elder or the church council who would grant permission.

As for how they would grant permission, I would guess it would be pretty formal. A security team appointed by the body in authority. A list of specific people appointed by the body in authority. Etc.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I have never heard of this exception.

I presume that you're not familiar with the laws in Indiana that pertain to the carry of firearms?

If not, I strongly strongly strongly urge you to familiarize yourself with them.

Indiana Code TITLE 35, Article 47 Table of Contents

-J-

 

[minuteman32]

Had a similar quandary, only in Hamilton Co. & the school was a mile away from the main church building. I was told that, "you can't have a gun w/in 1000' of the main building & the other building is a 'school 24/7/365". I carry to church anyway b/c they are wrong about the "1000' " & the pastor asked me to carry ..... just in case.

 

[Hemingway]

I presume that you're not familiar with the laws in Indiana that pertain to the carry of firearms?

If not, I strongly strongly strongly urge you to familiarize yourself with them.

Indiana Code TITLE 35, Article 47 Table of Contents

-J-

You presume correctly. Thank you for the link.

 

[canav844]

Here's the IC with a little emphasis added

IC 35-47-9
Chapter 9. Possession of Firearms on School Property and School Buses
IC 35-47-9-0.1
Application of chapter
Sec. 0.1. The addition of this chapter by P.L.140-1994 applies to crimes committed after June 30, 1994.
As added by P.L.220-2011, SEC.624.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function; to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property"
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
As added by P.L.296-1987, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.34-1991, SEC.27; P.L.9-1991, SEC.95; P.L.2-1992, SEC.880; P.L.81-1992, SEC.38; P.L.1-1993, SEC.240; P.L.160-1994, SEC.1; P.L.1-2005, SEC.227; P.L.145-2006, SEC.370.

If you get any exemption per the statutes listed; I'd strongly recommend having it in writing and keeping it like an NFA stamp, copy in the safe with copies on you and spare in your car and spare in the bank

 

[mrortega]

Again not an attorney, but in the Catholic Church I would bet it is the head person stationed at the property. So at the Catholic High School run by a community of nuns, I would bet it is the Mother Superior of the order. While at the local parish, I would bet it is the parish Priest. I believe the Bishop is too far up the ladder and too far removed physically to be the person of authority over the physical property, the person stationed at the property and designated its head, be it a Nun or a Priest, would likely be considered the 'authority' who would grant the permission. It would be very similar at an Orthodox or an Episcopalian parish as they have similar structures to the Catholic church.

At an independent Christian church I would bet it would be the Brother, Deacon, Elder or the church council who would grant permission.

As for how they would grant permission, I would guess it would be pretty formal. A security team appointed by the body in authority. A list of specific people appointed by the body in authority. Etc.

Sorry. Your "guess" is wrong about the Catholic hierarchy. The bishop "owns" everything in the diocese. I don't know about other parochial organizations. Most non-denominational churches have some kind of ruling body that is the "owner." If the preacher, deacon or whomever has the power to overrule everyone else in the organization when it comes to hiring, firing, building a new building or disbanding he/she/they is/are the "owner."

 

[melensdad]

Regarding the Catholic church (and the Orthodox and the Episcopalian) I understand the Bishop owns everything. I don't believe that the law requires the OWNER to be the person who is giving the permission, I believe the law would accept the authority of the person who is given the authority over the property.

The code does not seem to require the property OWNER to be the person who gives the authority.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Are you talking about Crosspointe?

 

[Hemingway]

Are you talking about Crosspointe?

No. (If that question was directed to me.)

 

[mrortega]

Regarding the Catholic church (and the Orthodox and the Episcopalian) I understand the Bishop owns everything. I don't believe that the law requires the OWNER to be the person who is giving the permission, I believe the law would accept the authority of the person who is given the authority over the property.

The code does not seem to require the property OWNER to be the person who gives the authority.

I'll bet you a 50 round box of 230gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 Auto that if the local priest says you can carry in "his" school and the bishop says you cannot you'll be meeting the prison minister.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Has anyone ever secured this exemption from a public school? Would the principal be enough or would it have to be the superintendent?

 

[laxmann31]

Well the law says you cant carry on school grounds. It does not say whether public or private. With that said the best bet would be consulting a lawyer to find the answer. I would like to say yes given the "school" give permission. There seems to be a lot of grey. are to this. For example, a university is a "school" but its up to the governing body to decide whether or not a person can carry a gun or not

 

[ATM]

...For example, a university is a "school" but its up to the governing body to decide whether or not a person can carry a gun or not

Universities/colleges are not schools according to Indiana code, so carry on those properties is not prohibited by law.

 

[Bondhead88]

The law makes no exceptions for private / parochial schools vs. government schools.

A school is a school is a school. Also, according to IN law, a school is never not a school. If a school on a Monday in February, it's also a school on a Saturday in July.

So, if it's a school: Carry is always a no-go...unless authorized by the governing body of that school.

-J-

not necessarily true. Many schools are governed by the church and therefore may come from the pastor.

 

[laxmann31]

I guess that would make sense given that colleges have the choice while the law clearly says that guns are not allowed on any type of school property.

I found the definition of a school in:
IC 16-41-37.5-1
"School"
Sec. 1. As used in this chapter, "school" refers to a:
(1) public school; or
(2) nonpublic school that is not located in a private home.

So it seems in this case it cant be allowed.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I guess that would make sense given that colleges have the choice while the law clearly says that guns are not allowed on any type of school property.

I found the definition of a school in:
IC 16-41-37.5-1
"School"
Sec. 1. As used in this chapter, "school" refers to a:
(1) public school; or
(2) nonpublic school that is not located in a private home.

So it seems in this case it cant be allowed.

You must read the IC that defines school. Under THAT definition, a college / university / post-secondary establishment is NOT A SCHOOL in Indiana.