Legal Carry Question?

[laxmann31]

Thats good to know, I tried searching for that but I understand that now. But back to the topic, I think in this case it seems that a gun cant be carried to church (AKA school grounds) because its a private school according to the law.

 

[melensdad]

Thats good to know, I tried searching for that but I understand that now. But back to the topic, I think in this case it seems that a gun cant be carried to church (AKA school grounds) because its a private school according to the law.

A gun CAN be carried to CHURCH.

A gun canNOT be carried to a combination CHURCH/SCHOOL. If the school grounds are attached to the church grounds (shared parking, etc), even if the buildings are separated, then the church is considered a school because they share the property.

So if the church is a stand alone church that does not have a Sunday school, does not have a day care center, and is not a shared property with a school/Sunday school/day care center/etc then you may carry at that church.

 

[laxmann31]

But the original post states that the church and school share the same grounds and facility. Sorry I wasnt clear on my post about the church being a school, I was referencing the original problem of the church/school problem not churches in general. Is sunday school (bible study if you will) really considered a school by law?

 

[cbseniour]

Here's the IC with a little emphasis added




If you get any exemption per the statutes listed; I'd strongly recommend having it in writing and keeping it like an NFA stamp, copy in the safe with copies on you and spare in your car and spare in the bank

So if t he church /school board, pastor, elders etc appoint every member to be a security guard then the whole congregation can come to church armed?

 

[Hemingway]

A gun CAN be carried to CHURCH.

A gun canNOT be carried to a combination CHURCH/SCHOOL. If the school grounds are attached to the church grounds (shared parking, etc), even if the buildings are separated, then the church is considered a school because they share the property.

So if the church is a stand alone church that does not have a Sunday school, does not have a day care center, and is not a shared property with a school/Sunday school/day care center/etc then you may carry at that church.

Seems like to me that any type of religious services, whether for adults or children would not be considered a "school" under this definition, would it?

(I'm speaking of a church building alone, not the scenario in my original post)

Just because "school" is in "Sunday school" doesn't seem to me to constitute a school under IN law.

Don't we have some lawyers or prosecutors on this board? I'm sure there is some case law or ruling on this somewhere, no?

I am appreciating all the responses to my original post, THANKS

 

[ATM]

The only school definition which applies here is this one:

IC 35-41-1-24.7

"School property"
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

 

[actaeon277]

Unless it's an even year,
On an odd Thursday.
When it's raining,
And Jupiter is in the third house.

Make car drivers go through this crap and it wouldn't be so convoluted.
THINK OF THE CHILDREN

 

[Dead Duck]

Just bypass the middleman and ask the Head Honcho for a permission slip - GOD.

Hope you workout, stone tablets are heavy.

 

[Bondhead88]

A gun CAN be carried to CHURCH.

A gun canNOT be carried to a combination CHURCH/SCHOOL. If the school grounds are attached to the church grounds (shared parking, etc), even if the buildings are separated, then the church is considered a school because they share the property.

So if the church is a stand alone church that does not have a Sunday school, does not have a day care center, and is not a shared property with a school/Sunday school/day care center/etc then you may carry at that church.

1) A Sunday School does not qualify as a school.

2) This issue of the government telling churches what can and cannot be done of it's property is a growing issue. Georgia has the problem of it's state government setting laws that guns cannot be carried on places of worship. The government is stepping over it's authority be leaps and bounds. For some reason we continually allow the government to get involved in dictating what religious institutions can and cannot do.

Whether it is republicans or democrats we sit back and watch our rights being eroded. The government tells religious institutions to offer birth control free of charge. When that doesn't go over they tell the health care companies they have to offer it without charge or co pay.

That's exactly what they will do...yeah right. I am sure there will be no other cost increase anywhere.

It's the same as telling pharmacists what products they have to sell. So they tell both faith based and non faith based institutions what they must sell and do.

It is amazing to me that the government of the people, for the people and by the people has been changed to the government that tells the people, dictates to the people and controls the people.

The government does not belong dictating to churches what they can or cannot have on or in their buildings regardless if there is a school on their property which they pay for. This is not a careless and cavalier statement disregarding the safety of children.

Malls, McDonalds and Macey's all have children in them. Shall we all stop bringing guns there too?

If it unsafe to have guns at these places then tell Oneida they are banned at schools because their forks, knives and spoons are responsible for childhood obesity. Start a Slogan "Flatware causes fat wear"

 

[jd42k]

Here's the IC with a little emphasis added




If you get any exemption per the statutes listed; I'd strongly recommend having it in writing and keeping it like an NFA stamp, copy in the safe with copies on you and spare in your car and spare in the bank

My interpretation of IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function; to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.

If one volunteers to serve in the church/school in any way they would be authorized by the church/school and therefore exempt.

Thoughts?

 

[inccwchris]

What if there is a fence between the school and the church separating the two properties?

 

[Bill of Rights]

My interpretation of IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function; to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.

If one volunteers to serve in the church/school in any way they would be authorized by the church/school and therefore exempt.

Thoughts?

I asked that question of one of our INGO attorney members. I was told that despite the wording and punctuation of the statute, the court would rule against me (as, for example, a parent chaperoning a school dance.)

I did not ask him the basis for his opinion, however considering he gave me an opinion rather than an "it depends", I think I'd not push the issue.

Bottom line: If you want to carry at a school, get permission in writing first from a person authorized to give it. Start with the principal, if there is one; if you start with the superintendent/bishop/cardinal/whatever and are told "no", you only have the school board or the Pope to go to to ask permission.

Better answer: Let's get the law changed such that LTCH holders are no longer prohibited from carry there (and that only as a precursor to full Constitutional carry.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

What if there is a fence between the school and the church separating the two properties?

Fences don't matter.

It's usage / ownership of the property that matters.

A real sticky wicket is when you have contiguous properties that are all owned by the same entity (say, a church), where one property with it's own parcel ID contains a school, and the next property, with it's own parcel ID, doesn't have the school but rather the church building itself.

If the properties don't share anything but a common border... My own personal opinion is that the church would be OK but crossing the imaginary line onto the school's parcel makes you a criminal.

-J-

 

[mrortega]

I wish the legislature would man/woman up and clarify this kind of question. Why are some of these statutes so confusing that the court has to make them clear? I'm Catholic and there is only one church that I know of in my area that doesn't have a school or day care associated with it. My "home" parrish has a stand-alone church but the campus has the church, school, rectory and former convent in the same compound. I could see where I could be acquitted of carrying in or on school property if found in church. However, the church that I go to most often has a hall way and common wall connecting the church with the school. In that case I could be in trouble if carrying to Mass. I would hope that a judge/jury would rule that as long as I was in the church or walking to my vehicle in the parking lot I would not be in violation but I really wouldn't want to bet in that case and it would be much more dangerous than in my home parrish.

Also I wonder if the grounds could be considered "church grounds" since the church predated the school in most cases.

You know, I think I'll talk to Jim Tomes and see if there can be some clarifying language in the definition of school/church property in this next legislative session.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

I asked that question of one of our INGO attorney members. I was told that despite the wording and punctuation of the statute, the court would rule against me (as, for example, a parent chaperoning a school dance.)

I did not ask him the basis for his opinion, however considering he gave me an opinion rather than an "it depends", I think I'd not push the issue.

Bottom line: If you want to carry at a school, get permission in writing first from a person authorized to give it. Start with the principal, if there is one; if you start with the superintendent/bishop/cardinal/whatever and are told "no", you only have the school board or the Pope to go to to ask permission.

Better answer: Let's get the law changed such that LTCH holders are no longer prohibited from carry there (and that only as a precursor to full Constitutional carry.)

Blessings,
Bill

Bill, is it correct then that If I were to get written permission from the principal at my kids school that I would then be legal to carry on that school property? This is the way I read the IC and it seems you read it the same way.

WC

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Bill, is it correct then that If I were to get written permission from the principal at my kids school that I would then be legal to carry on that school property? This is the way I read the IC and it seems you read it the same way.

WC

I would venture that whatever person/persons do the hiring/approval for hiring is who you'd need to approach.

Generally, that'll probably mean the superintendent and/or school board.

Just another unclear area of this particular section of Indiana Code.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

I would venture that whatever person/persons do the hiring/approval for hiring is who you'd need to approach.

Generally, that'll probably mean the superintendent and/or school board.

Just another unclear area of this particular section of Indiana Code.

Agreed it is a little unclear but reading it again it doesn't say whom you have to have authorization from it just says authorized by

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function; to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Agreed it is a little unclear but reading it again it doesn't say whom you have to have authorization from it just says authorized by

I understand what it says...

But you have to get to the bottom of the question of "who has the authority to authorize".

I'd bet that it wouldn't be with the Principal.

But I don't know that the above could be argued against should one have a Principal's authority...because it's so unclear in the IC.

See? Gray area?

I guess I'm trying to jive "school system hierarchy". Snot working.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Bill, is it correct then that If I were to get written permission from the principal at my kids school that I would then be legal to carry on that school property? This is the way I read the IC and it seems you read it the same way.

WC

*I* would think so, but as always, I'm not a lawyer. What matters is what the jury and/or the judge think. Who hires off-duty police officers to do school security? That would likely be who you need to contact. This is my opinion and is not based in my reading of the law, only in what I think to be sensible.

A better step, IMHO, would be ending the prohibition on LTCH holders carrying there. The best action would be the wholesale repeal of the need for a LTCH and restoration of the 2A as written.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[db1959]

Is a college prep high school considered a "high school"? Grades 8 through 12 (not that it matters).

The reason I ask is because I work for one which owns a lot of land. Some of it is wooded with some nice hiking trails. I happen to live across from one of the wooded areas and would love to carry while I walk the trails.