Kel-Tec Introduces New 30 Round .22 Mag Pistol

[TopDog]

I think you are missing the point of the gun. It's not a training tool for defensive work. It's a nice, lightweight high-capacity backpack piece, or a fun plinker. The mag release makes no difference. Even if used as a home defense piece, in what scenario is 31 rounds fired, with a need for a quick mag change? I'm not sure that .22 magnum is enough for zombies.

You may have a valid point. I don't see anyone using a .22 in this training video.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEKKSmsVJs"]YouTube - How to Kill a ZOMBIE! (HD)[/ame]

 

[dsol]

Me likey!!! Pair that up with a folding carbine that takes the same magazine and you will have a hell of a winning pair. Talk about a great get home bag combo, truck guns, etc. I will have to visit their website and start suggesting a carbine to go with it. Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Now I wonder if it might be possible to make a 22lr barrel and magazine "conversion kit" to go with it.

 

[goColt]

Those lying, dirty SOB's!

For those of you who DONT know, the founder of KelTec was also responcible for the now defunct Grendel Arms... Thats why so many KT products look identical to Grendel products.

Not sure I follow the point. What difference does it make if they have anything to do with Grendel or not? Just wondering, not criticizing.

 

[Serial Crusher]

Not sure I follow the point. What difference does it make if they have anything to do with Grendel or not? Just wondering, not criticizing.

It's relevant to the part of the post you cropped out. Even though Kel-Tec claims not to be associated with Grendel the owner is the founder of both companies. He designed the Grendel P30, a 30 round automatic .22WMR pistol.

I think Chalupa is wondering why this pistol wasn't at market 5 years ago.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I'm a KelTec fan as well. I like them.

Even so, I fail to see what is so innovative? Many of there offerings can be traced directly back to Kellgrens earlier designs.... These guns have been on the market in some forms for nearly 20 years now... the only difference is that people finally started paying attention.

I'm saying how many guns, do you see on the market compared to some of Kel-Tecs designs. I 'm talking about manufactures, that are seen in major magazines etc.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I think you are missing the point of the gun. It's not a training tool for defensive work. It's a nice, lightweight high-capacity backpack piece, or a fun plinker. The mag release makes no difference. Even if used as a home defense piece, in what scenario is 31 rounds fired, with a need for a quick mag change? I'm not sure that .22 magnum is enough for zombies.

Really with the whole zombie comment again . Yes I do not see it as a daily carry gun. However they make some pretty hot loads, in 22MWR. I do know anyone who would want to be on the tail end, of 30 high velocity 22MWR hollow points, do you?

 

[Fergy35]

OH Great! Something else to add to the want list. As already suggested, this along with a carbine would be a great little combo for fun or for the backpack.
Hopefully they will be down in the $300, $325 or $350 range.

 

[Disposable Heart]

If it's like the old Grendel, I'll pass unless I hear it feeds better than the original gun!

As far as ballistics, most of the ballistics are from Rifle barrels. Brassfetcher, online, did gel testing and could barely get .22 mag to expand or fragment from a .22 mag handgun. I think one did expand, but didn't do much in penetration. Still, should be a real head turner at the range!

 

[22lr]

Ill read reviews first but at first glance I want one. Having 30rounds of anything in a standard pistol frame package is pretty cool. But being a Kel-tec, im not a fan already.

 

[cce1302]

COP KILLER!!!



Ohhhhh boy, I want two!!!!

 

[ChalupaCabras]

If it's like the old Grendel, I'll pass unless I hear it feeds better than the original gun!

As far as ballistics, most of the ballistics are from Rifle barrels. Brassfetcher, online, did gel testing and could barely get .22 mag to expand or fragment from a .22 mag handgun. I think one did expand, but didn't do much in penetration. Still, should be a real head turner at the range!

You are forgetting to mention that the brass fetcher tests were conducted with an NAA micro revolver (1" barrel) and a Taurus snub nose. (2" barrel), nether of which had any problem exceeding 12" of gelatin penetration.

While the short 4.3" barrel of the KelTec pistol will degrade velocity from the published figures, light weight bullets (~30gr) in the 22 magnum are still capable of reaching 1600fps from handgun barrels of 4" or more, and delivering over 200ft-lbs of energy. That should be plenty to make a .22 caliber hollow point expand.


Long story short, it is completely reasonable to expect the PMR-30 to generate higher muzzle velocity and energy than a .22LR can manage from a rifle barrel, even with hyper velocity ammunition.

 

[dross]

I'm picturing a flashlight laser combo, for cottontails, bullfrogs, and turtles. (Not in Indiana, of course)

 

[Bronsonbull]

I'm picturing a flashlight laser combo, for cottontails, bullfrogs, and turtles. (Not in Indiana, of course)

That thought crossed my mind a couple times

 

[Redskinsfan]

I wouldn't hunt with one

As per the previous post suggested: using a .22 magnum handgun for hunting is something I would not do. I don't wear hearing protection while I am hunting and I would never fire a .22 magnum handgun without except in an emergency. I own an AMT .22 Automag and the high velocity accompanied by the burning of powder beyond the muzzle make for a remarkable report. It is the loudest handgun I own including my .44 magnum.

The pistol itself does seem neat with its 30 round mag.

Unlike a few previouls posters, I do like Kel-Tec. My KT P32 is my most frequent carry pistol, it has always functioned flawlessly.

Terry

 

[Hoosier8]

Just the same, it looks like a fun piece.

Here is an article I found on the 5.7.

The 5.7x28mm "Cop Killer" Cartridge Myth

By Barr H. Soltis with Chuck Hawks

As a U.S. Government intelligence manager, I receive a significant number of "Officer Safety" alerts generated by a wide variety of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies. One alert that regularly rears its ugly head focuses on the alleged "cop killer" 5.7x28mm round fired by the Five-seveN pistol manufactured by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FNH) of Belgium. Given my innate curiosity, I decided to research this super duper cop-killing round and try to put it into perspective.

This is a .224 caliber rimless, bottlenecked, boxer primed, centerfire cartridge designed for use in semi-automatic arms. (Primarily pistols and sub-machineguns.) The cartridge overall length is 1.594 inches and it can be loaded to a maximum pressure of 50,040 psi.

Published reports indicate that as factory loaded the 5.7x28mm drives a 32 grain bullet, load #SS190-AP (armor piercing), at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2350 fps with 390 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy (ME). The 28 grain spitzer bullet, load #SS195LF-JHP, has a muzzle velocity of 2350 fps and muzzle energy of 290 ft. lbs. The 40 grain Hornady V-Max bullet, load #SS197SR, claims a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps with 340 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Readers old enough to remember the obsolete .22 Remington Jet small game and varmint cartridge of 1960--40 grain bullet at about 2000 fps from a S&W Model 53 revolver--will be startled to hear that the slightly less powerful 5.7x28mm is a "cop-killer" round.

It is important to remember that the 5.7x28mm velocity and energy figures were derived from a 10.35 inch (sub-machinegun length) test barrel and that the Five-seveN pistol barrel actually measures 4.82 inches in length. Realistically, we can anticipate a substantial velocity loss of about 20% when the 5.7x28mm cartridge is fired from a pistol. This would mean an actual MV of approximately 1560 fps and ME of 216 ft. lbs. for the 5.7x28mm 40 grain bullet when fired from a handgun. Because it starts a heavier bullet at lower velocity, which maximizes energy and minimizes velocity loss, this should be the most effective load for a 5.7x28mm pistol.

A comparison of the performance of the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire (WMR), introduced in 1959, and the 5.7x28mm is interesting. The .22 WMR shares the same bullet diameter (.224") as the 5.7x28mm cartridge and their muzzle and energy figures are actually rather similar.

Winchester's Supreme .22 WMR loaded with a 34 grain jacketed hollow point bullet has a muzzle velocity of 2120 fps and muzzle energy of 339 ft. lbs. from a (presumably 24") rifle barrel and a muzzle velocity of 1690 fps with 216 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy from a 6.5" pistol barrel. (That is just a hair over the 20% velocity loss that we postulated for the 5.7x28mm.)

Winchester's Super-X .22 WMR 40 grain jacketed hollow point (JHP) and full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets--Winchester offers both--have a MV of 1910 fps with ME of 324 ft. lbs. from a rifle barrel. Fired from a 6.5" pistol barrel the same loads register 1480 fps MV and 195 ft. lbs. ME. Note that rifle ballistics of this load are nearly identical to the 40 grain 5.7x28mm factory load as fired from a sub-machinegun length barrel and from a pistol barrel the 5.7x28mm is only a puny 21 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy ahead of the .22 WMR. I have never heard that semi-automatic .22 WMR squirrel and jackrabbit rifles were considered a particular threat to police, nor have I ever heard the .22 WMR described as a "cop killer" handgun round. Actually, the .22 WMR is considered a "mouse gun" caliber by most handgun authorities.

Another interesting comparison is with the 9x19mm (9mm Luger) cartridge. The 9x19 is the official NATO pistol and sub-machinegun cartridge and is widely used by police as well as by at least some real life criminals. Using Winchester published ballistics for comparison, we find that the popular Super-X 115 grain Silvertip JHP load has a MV of 1225 fps and ME of 383 ft. lbs. from a 4" pistol barrel. The U.S. military load for the 9x19mm drives a 124 grain bullet at a MV of 1299 fps and ME of 465 ft. lbs. from the Beretta M9 service pistol.

These numbers indicate that the common 9x19mm is a considerably more powerful cartridge than the 5.7x28mm when fired from pistol length barrels. This will surprise no one familiar with firearms or who has a passing familiarity with external ballistics. In reality, because the 9x19 fires a heavier bullet with far greater cross-sectional area, it will create a much larger wound cavity and prove far deadlier than this simple comparison of "paper" ballistics would indicate.

The 5.7x28mm caused quite a stir a few years back with the assertion that its AP load could penetrate at least some Kevlar helmets and body armor. (So, of course, will most other AP rifle and handgun rounds.) This may or may not be true, but the fact is that sales of armor piercing ammo are restricted to law enforcement and the military. This alone makes the 5.7x28mm cop killing round nothing more than an urban legend, leaving the practical use of the 5.7x28mm for target shooting, plinking and short range varmint hunting, much like the .22 WMR.

Frankly, I know of few individuals who would be willing to spend more than $900.00 for the FN Five-seveN pistol and then shell out more than $20 for a 50 round box of ammunition. (.22 WMR ammo commonly sells for $7-$8 for a 50 round box.) I imagine that the Five-seveN probably also fails to spark much interest with criminals, as these pistols are rare and thus almost impossible to acquire except from legitimate, FFL dealers. Typically, the criminal element usually relies on the availability of larger (9x19mm, for instance), more effective calibers that can be easily acquired in the stolen gun market.

This leaves us with the obvious conclusion that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has little advantage over the .22 WMR in terms of killing power and serious disadvantages in terms of the price and availability of both firearms and ammunition. Without doubt, being shot with either can have deadly results, but there are much greater threats and more important things with which to be concerned. The top "man stopping" handgun cartridge remains the .357 Magnum, and it has been around since 1934.

 

[kingnereli]

The article doesn't mention any provision present for mounting a scope. Is this the case? I'm sold if there is a way to get a scope on.

 

[hotfarmboy1]

Its official, I want one!! I already use 22 WMR in a revolver around the farm for pests (raccoons, possums, etc) and it does wonderful. One shot one kill almost every time. And I've been wanting another gun in that caliber, and frankly 30 rds of ammo on tap would be awesome! Most loads of 22 wmr would do better than what some of you think for defense. The ones I use the most for varmints is the Federal/CCI TNT load that uses a 30 gr gold dot hollowpoint with velocity ratings at 2200 fps. Granted that's out of a rifle barrel. But It should still be stepping out to prob 1800-2000 out of the pistol and would be a decent defense round with good placement. I'm really looking forward to this one coming out on the market!!

 

[Disposable Heart]

You are forgetting to mention that the brass fetcher tests were conducted with an NAA micro revolver (1" barrel) and a Taurus snub nose. (2" barrel), nether of which had any problem exceeding 12" of gelatin penetration.

While the short 4.3" barrel of the KelTec pistol will degrade velocity from the published figures, light weight bullets (~30gr) in the 22 magnum are still capable of reaching 1600fps from handgun barrels of 4" or more, and delivering over 200ft-lbs of energy. That should be plenty to make a .22 caliber hollow point expand.


Long story short, it is completely reasonable to expect the PMR-30 to generate higher muzzle velocity and energy than a .22LR can manage from a rifle barrel, even with hyper velocity ammunition.

Repped, I forgot about the barrel length! Should be a decent performer!

 

[38special]

That's seriously cool. I'm going to follow this and see what they sell for.

 

[holejack1]

I'll be gettin one!