James Yeager and Jeff Bloovman - Bullpups Suck

[MilitaryArms]

Fullauto, you have more time on a bullpup than I do. I have only shot them briefly. We do have a couple of guys on staff with extensive bullpup experience. I will see what they have to say about your differences.

Any info you can share about the process for clearing malfunctions would be welcomed.

 

[RandomName]

What about the new Keltec bullpup? Serious fighting rifle, range warrior, or also ran?

I have to admit I'm fascinated by the concept of the bullpup, but have absolutely no experience with them. The Keltec is about the only one in my price range, and even at that my wallet experiences severe cramps. I've read some reviews, but not from anyone who seems to have used it hard.

 

[Excalibur]

What about the new Keltec bullpup? Serious fighting rifle, range warrior, or also ran?

I have to admit I'm fascinated by the concept of the bullpup, but have absolutely no experience with them. The Keltec is about the only one in my price range, and even at that my wallet experiences severe cramps. I've read some reviews, but not from anyone who seems to have used it hard.

I've talked with Blythe's about the RFB and they told me, someone bought one from them after requesting it and waiting months to get it...then sold it back because he either didn't like it or couldn't handle it.

My problem with bullpups with forward ejecting systems is that it is one extra thing that can go wrong. How do you clear a jam in an FS2000? or a P90 or the RFB when the place where the shells eject is not in the traditional manner. Say what you want about the AUG and others like it, at when when it has a malfunction, you can clear it just as easily as traditional rifles because it's the same rifle just in a different position.

 

[MilitaryArms]

My problem with bullpups with forward ejecting systems is that it is one extra thing that can go wrong. How do you clear a jam in an FS2000? or a P90 or the RFB when the place where the shells eject is not in the traditional manner. Say what you want about the AUG and others like it, at when when it has a malfunction, you can clear it just as easily as traditional rifles because it's the same rifle just in a different position.

The FS2000 (which I have) is not easy to clear malfunctions from. You can't access the chamber at all. With a AR15, AUG, even the PS90 (which I also have), you can easily access the chamber area to clear malfunctions. Even with the port cover up on the FS2000 you can barely see the chamber much less access it.

The PS90 has an ejection port on the bottom. If you want to access it, pop the mag out and you have direct access to the chamber area. It's super simple to clear malfunctions from.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I took some quick pics of the FS2000. This is the rifle with the top port open to access the chamber. When you look inside, this is what you see:

The white piece of plastic you see obstructing the view of the chamber is the feed pawl that shuttles the spent casing up to the ejection tube.

Here's a shot looking straight down into the chamber area, the rifle does not have a magazine in so you can see the obstructed view you have of the rounds in the mag if the rifle is loaded.

I will say malfunctions have been rare, but I have had them. If you get one you will have to drop your mag, flip open the top cover, and shake the rifle right-side up, up-side down, and all around. You'll hear the casing/round rattling around in the gun. If you shake it right, the round will fall out. If the round becomes jammed in the shuttle, you're going to need a stick or other object to poke it out. If that doesn't work, you'll have to pull the butt plate off, remove the trigger group and shake it out the rear.

 

[MilitaryArms]

They do look cool, no doubt. They are also a lot of fun to shoot.

The other thing that bugs me about the FS2000 is that it's not very accurate. Even with match ammo you're lucky to get 2 MOA out of it with optics. But then I realize they're not match rifles. I just hoped for a little more out of it.

 

[Barry in IN]

A couple of years ago, I would have agreed with everything in the video. But since then, I educated myself on the AUG a little.

As a result, I bought a new AUG about two weeks ago.
I like it even better after using it.

I'll jump straight to the part I haven't seen any comments on- the part that made me laugh.
That would be the one about the sling swivel being the takedown pin and how it can be yanked out.

I'd like to see this.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but anyone strong enough to do this, even intentionally with the stock clamped in a vise, is strong enough they don't need the rifle anyway. They can just carry bullets and throw them at people hard enough to kill them.

Yes, the swivel's pin is the pin that retains the buttplate, and therefore keeps the trigger assembly in.
But it isn't just stuck through there.
It doesn't use some spring-loaded detent either.
The buttplate has steel "legs" that extend into the stock. One on each side of the stock. These "legs" hook and lock into grooves in the pin, so the pin is locked in two places. When the rubber buttplate is pushed in at the right place (there is a thumb dent to locate it) the legs are pushed past the swivel pin to clear, and it can then be pulled out. It takes a strong push just to do that.
At any rate, there is quite a bit of steel-on-steel surface keeping that pin in place. I'd think to rip it out would take a small tractor, although some idiot somewhere probably has assembled it wrong and will prove different.

Yes, it will throw empties in your face when fired from the left shoulder (if you don't know the tricks). Even so, how does that make it "impossible to do transitions with" if needed? Brass in the face sucks, but it doesn't make it "impossible". If you are fighting for your life and need to shoot wrong-handed, are you going to stop shooting because of this? I rank "sucks" several rungs below "impossible", especially if it's life or death.

There are a couple of ways to deal with it, besides simply eating brass. The first has been mentioned- You put your right hand on top of the stock...sorta like shooting a belt fed from a tripod. This uses your hand as a brass deflector. Locating the hand so it touches your face puts it in the right spot.
B-b-but, then you're shooting one-handed! Yes, and the balance point is in that hand, so it's no problem. Jam the VFG against whatever you are shooting around if you want more support or control.

Or, you do what I did and duct tape a piece of an empty 12 gauge shell behind the port. Ta-da! Bubba case deflector.
Or you simply buy one of the $15 case deflectors out there. Big deal.

Ergonomics are in the eye of the (be)holder. Yes, the magazine changes are weird. I've only had mine a little over a week, and I'm still trying not to jam a fresh mag into the VFG. But the AUG has a 42-rd mag that works. I got mine for a house gun- I think 42 will do. If not, I'm grabbing a bigger gun anyway.

The mag catch gets pushed upward to unlatch the mag, so you can do a mag change like an AK were you hit the latch with the fresh mag's spine and flip the mag out. The 42-rd mags usually fall free on mine when unlatched, but the 30s need to nudge. Yeah, it's a little more than hitting a button and dropping an AR mag, but it's not the huge deal I once thought (and they still do).

As far as the odd location goes, I found it puts the magwell close to the fresh mag coming from a chest rig.
It makes a good rest in prone too. The 30-rd is the right height. Two fingers around, and two fingers under, the VFG gives me ground contact at the front and rear. FWIW, I find I like that better than a bench, because there is less lateral "rolling".

To me, any mag location negative is offset by the balance, at least in my case. A lot of this is because of my crippled up back, as some of you who know me might be aware of. I have a hard time holding even a short-barreled AR in standing for very long. This really bothers me because Offhand was my favorite position in Highpower.
But the AUG I can hold there easily. The weight is centered in the dominant hand. I thought this neutral weight would make it harder to shoot standing, because the front end would be too light and swim around. That doesn't seem to be the case. It's not exactly a light rifle, so there is enough weight to dampen that, I guess.
Whatever the reason, I can shoot the AUG better standing than an AR, even with the 9-lb AUG trigger. I can shoot an entire 30-rd mag standing, but have to lower an AR after ten at the most.

The other thing they knocked was the optic. They haven't come with that optic in how long? Two decades? I know the new one I looked at in 1997 had a rail. So put whatever you want on it.

They didn't like the safety. I didn't either. Until I used it.
I thought it looked clumsy to use, but it's pretty natural. When the firing hand trigger finger is straight alongside the receiver, the base of that finger is at the safety. Press in as you bring the rifle up, and you take the safety off.
The thumb is on the opposite side. Lower the rifle, press in with the thumb, and the safety is on. No problem.
Picture the straight trigger finger and thumb forming a "V" when viewed from above. Rotate the hand inboard a couple of degrees- safety off. Rotate outboard a couple of degrees- safety on. Off, on. No problem.
And it's ambidextrous.

Other things mentioned in this thread included the need to use Steyr AUG mags. I don't see that as a problem. Lots of guns use proprietary mags. I always wondered why that mattered so much with rifles while nobody complains that relatively few pistol mags interchange.
Besides, it's a good magazine. I've always liked AUG mags, even before I liked the AUG. They work, they are tough, they are well textured for a good grasp, they seat with a closed bolt when fully loaded.

"Yeah, but what if I need more mags?" Then buy some now. Or later. Pete Athens has been selling AUGs since they came in the country. He is "the" AUG guy (I think Steyr asks him stuff). He almost always has mags. He has mags right now for, I think, $30 for 30-rd and $32 for 42-rd. Buy an AUG from him and they come cheaper. Yes, that is higher than AR mags, but from what I've heard, they last a long time too. And can you get a good mag for an AR that holds around 40 rounds for $32?

"But I have ____ AR mags already and want to use them!" Buy an AUG "NATO" stock, which uses AR mags. Gabe Suarez may not have seen any, but there are a lot out there. New ones are something like $300. You can even pick the tactical chic color of the month. The E4 model MSAR AUG clones used AR mags too.
The problem is that reliability is supposedly so-so at times with AR mags in AUGs. Oh well, that happens when one uses mags a gun was not designed for originally.

As far as malfunction clearing goes, I think it's easier with an AUG than an AR. I love the AR, but one of my biggest gripes about the AR is locking the bolt open. Every trainer teaches us to keep the strong hand on the grip unless it's on fire...then when we get a malfunction requiring the bolt to locked open- perhaps the most serious, stressful operation- we have to reverse that and draw the charging handle back with the strong hand while pressing the hold open latch with the other.
With the AUG, you pull the CH back as normal, and lift it up into it's hold open notch. Simple. And when you rotate it a little inboard, and you are looking right into the port.

What I saw in the video was a couple of guys dismissing the AUG (and other bullpups) because they don't like them. I don't care, mainly because I do it too. But they are doing it without much more than a passing glance. This looks jacked up so it must be jacked up. This is what I did for 20 years, so I know. I hated the things. Somebody would buy one, show it to me, and I'd look to be polite. After a while, I noticed I was putting up less resistance, then looking longer when I did. Of course, once I really looked them over and decided they weren't so bad after all, the AWB was in place and they cost as much as a good used car.

Further evidence of not basing the opinions on using one is they missed actual faults. Here are a few that I think are hard to miss:

With the charging handle so close to the rail, it gets crowded with some optics. People talk about this on the SCAR, but it's roomy in comparison. It was not originally designed for a rail, so this is the sorry result. An optional tall rail helps though. I just threw a Vortex SPARC (for the narrow base) on mine as a solution. There is also an extended charging handle out there, that gets the knuckles farther away.

I think with the magazine, pistol grip, trigger guard bow, and VFG all within about 12" of space, it gets crowded. There is a lot going on within that foot of space. I've reached for the rifle and grabbed the trigger guard instead of the magazine. How much of that is from it being a new and unfamilar rifle, and how much will stick around, I don't know yet.

I don't much care for the big loop trigger guard. Besides your straight trigger finger, there are three more fingers you can get up there to the trigger. I guess with this I'm guilty of seeing things that "could happen" but this is a pretty serious thing if it does.

Planting a straight trigger finger against the frame is a little different. With most guns, there is some bump or ledge to index it on. The AUG is flat and sloped inward at this area. If anything, it almost wants to force the finger to the trigger. I'm going to stick a small piece of skateboard tape there to give my finger something to index on. I think that will work, but a molded-in ridge would be better.

The VFG warms up from shooting. There aren't many alternatives to using it either. The coming CQC model with about a hundred feet of rails on it will allow some options, but there's another $250 for the CQC.

The boreline/sightline is even higher yet than an AR. You really have to be on top of that, but we adapted to the AR.

You have no choice in stock length. I thought this was going to be a big problem. I've gotten used to short stocks on ARs, so I had some worries here. When my AUG came in and I started shooting it, I forgot all about it until I was home later in the day. I thought it must be on the short side for me not to notice, so I measured the length of pull. I was surprised to find it was a huge 15". I don't know what it is, but somehow the stock length feels OK to me. But for someone else, it might be a problem, so it bears pointing out.

So no, they aren't perfect. But I'm seeing that a lot of the negatives I've heard, whether in the past or watching the video, aren't the same as the ones I find when actually using it.