James Yeager and Jeff Bloovman - Bullpups Suck

[MilitaryArms]

As far as Bull Pups go, I have fired an AUG, FS2000 and an PS90
The AUG I fired had the optic, I found it hard to get back on target quickly.

I don't think Jeff actually fired the AUG before making that video. The 1.5x optic with its doughnut of death reticle is actually one of the most effective combat optics out there. That's why Steyr still makes a 1.5x optic with a similar reticle to this day and militaries still use it. The Austrians did quite a bit of testing before adopting the 1.5x doughnut of death sight and found that it significantly increased hit probability. You won't win a bullseye match with one, but in a firefight it will improve your chances of scoring a hit on a man sized target.

 

[bwframe]

Bwframe beat me to it.

I told you I was a fan. Thank you for your work!

 

[rhino]

Eh, you're full of FAMAS!

You cant fire SOME bullpups design with either shoulder.
And if you are trained to use a bullpup and it's it will feel weird to use a non-bullpup design.

All the countries that use bullpup guns in their military have no problem with them.
Most people that dont like the bullpup designed are people who trained hundreds of hours with their M4 or AK and tried a bullpup for a few minutes at the range.
With training it's not weird at all to change mags on a bullput rifle.

 

[jeremy]

 

[Blackhawk2001]

My M16/M4 experience over a 39 year military career was, frankly, limited to the M16A1 I carried in 1970 for Basic Training, and the M4 I qualified with and carried for two weeks in 2006. As a left-hander, I never had enough training with one to get comfortable using it, so I can see where familiarity is going to be crucial to feeling comfortable to any weapon. For instance, I've found manipulating the safety on AR-type rifles to be a tremendous PITA. I'm certain there are workarounds for southpaws who use them all the time, but, frankly, the AK ergonomics have been easier for me to learn. I guess comfort levels accrue with experience gained with a weapons system, so I really can't fathom how an individual who hasn't accrued such experience with a weapons system can feel confident expressing what is supposed to be an informed opinion about it, good or bad. Certainly doesn't increase the likelyhood that I'll take anything else said as Gospell Truth.

 

[Fenway]

full-auto has the best reviews on the interwebs!

I told you I was a fan. Thank you for your work!

 

[223 Gunner]

I don't think Jeff actually fired the AUG before making that video. The 1.5x optic with its doughnut of death reticle is actually one of the most effective combat optics out there. That's why Steyr still makes a 1.5x optic with a similar reticle to this day and militaries still use it. The Austrians did quite a bit of testing before adopting the 1.5x doughnut of death sight and found that it significantly increased hit probability. You won't win a bullseye match with one, but in a firefight it will improve your chances of scoring a hit on a man sized target.

I only fired the AUG on one shooting trip, it is not mine, so I only had limited time with it, but as with all things if I fired one enough and trained with one I would have of course done better with it.

 

[MilitaryArms]

This was just posted on the GetofftheX forms by the guy who owns the AUG used in the video:

my name is michael phillips this is also my call sign i am now one of james new alumni that was my pre 86 aug the 1.5 was originalthat i lent a stranger at the palmyra rifle shoot .when asked i also lent a p-7m-13 out to the same individual.can't wait for that video.james asked at the end of the first day if any one had a red dot or halo gragh for a new student i loaned my eotech.another student didn't have a gunbelt the first day of class.the next day i brought in a viking tactical to lend.in the course description it stated to bring rifle with sling.no where in the course outline did it say ar-15's only.i had issue with the 2 point and was looking for constructive advice from james on how to remedy this.(single bungee type sling) i have no problem with james bullpup sucks theory.every one on here knows james however it was disingenuous of jeff the actor to use my gun in the video with out permission.but what got me was "burn through this dudes ammo,poor guy"if jeff had to work for a living he might realize that ammo is getting expensive.is this the caliber of instructor you want teaching.james course was great. jeff sucks

It seems he's giving James a pass for his involvement in the video but drops the hammer on Jeff.

 

[223 Gunner]

That's too bad, it seems like some of the people taking Mr. Yeager's class are not prepared. And here Mr. Phillips is nice enough to lend his gear out, then gets made fun of in a video. I can't blame him for being mad about it either, I would be. I do always take away something from the James Yeager video's, but I don't always like the way it is presented.

 

[Hookeye]

It appears that having class is not a requirement to teach a class.

 

[cedartop]

There is a reason for JY posting this video.

 

[jeremy]

There is a reason for JY posting this video.

And that would be?!

 

[bwframe]

There is a reason for JY posting this video.

'Cause he's in bed with Spikes?

 

[cedartop]

Gabe Suarez on The FS2000 VS. The AUG

Life has certainly become busier since we closed the door on trying to update the AK and began looking at new platforms. In the corporate armory we see SCARs (Light & Heavy), all the SIG line from 556Rs to 516s and 716s, the FS2000, the new AUGs, and a few others.

A life of quality is made up of the quality of choices we have available to us and these days, a rifle student has a very nice life. In this article, I will discuss two rifles I have spent some time with lately...the FS2000, and the Steyr AUG. I will discuss the goods and the bads and arrive at what is best in my view.

First the bullpup. Some guys hate it. The more I work with them, the more I like them. Now I am referring to quality bullpups, and not some cobbled together AK conversion bullpup. Today, the only quality bullpups are the FN P90, the FS2000, and the Steyr AUG. I know all about the Tavor, but right now, its vaporware. I will ommit the P90 as that is a niche weapon, and limit things to the two 5.56x45 guns.

Both are exquisitely made and truly examples of European quality. No, they are not cheap, but that is not the point of the discussion here. I am not going to go into histories, engineering concepts, or such things as there is no point in restating what has been around for everyone to read. Rather, my simple impressions.

The AUG is a thin gun, and handy. The new models are far better than the older pre-bans as you can use whatever optics you wish. The field of optics has changed a great deal since 1994 and being stuck with the Austrian doughnut is not a good thing. This one can take anything from an Aimpoint to an ACOG and from a Valdada to a Nightforce. In contrast, the FS2000 is a thicker gun, but not objectionable. It also has a full length rail to add any optic you wish.

Trigger is fine on both, but I noticed the FS2000 has a far better trigger than the AUG. The more I shot the FS, the more the trigger smoothed out. Operation is very similar on both rifles. Charging handles are very similar and magazine changes are very similar. Both systems encourage magazine retention which is a breath of fresh air to me.

On the magazines. The AUG uses proprietary magazines while the FS2000 uses metal GI M4 magazines. That is a big deal. I understand that Steyr has a model that will take M4 magazines but nobody seems to have one so I suspect they are waiting to see if the USA re-elects Mugabe before committing. If they do bring it on board, that would increase desirability for the AUG. Any 223 sold in the USA must accept M4 magazines to be economically viable.

The AUG has no handguard, per se, but rather a VFG attached to the barrel. I did not like this at all and is one of the two failings of the AUG. The VFG on the AUG must be held with a locked thumb grip rather than the more popular, and preferred by me, thumb forward grip. A locked down grip does not provide the same weapon index that a thumb forward grip does. Try a thumb forward grip on the AUG and you will probably burn your thumbprint off.

The FS2000 has a strange handguard system, but an effective one that allows any sort of grip the user wants. Most guys who run these will opt for the FN handguard system. I did, and added a MagPul VFG. That gives the FS a whole new pointability and allows the shooter to run the gun better in my opinion. It also provides for attachment of lights which are a good idea on any CQB gun.

The FS has an innovative and ingenious ejection system. Brass cases are ejected forward into a tube coaxial with the barrel and dribble out through the ejection gate just forward of the handguards. Range rats don't see the value in this, but load up a Jeep with three guys and workk on some mobile firing drills and NOT having your buddy's brass ejected into your eyes or face is a very nice thing. The FS beats the AUG hands down for firing in confined spaces like a motor vehicle.

While on the subject of motor vehicles, the ability to fire the weapon from either shoulder comes up. We are very ambidextrous in our approach to rifle work and that is where the AUG leaves us cold. With the AUG you cannot fire the weapon easily with your left cheek on the rifle using the mirror image of the right side cheekweld unless you pre-emptively turn the rifle into a lefty version. Try the shoulder switch exercise without running your face all the way back to the butt of the AUG and you will likely be pegged in the face with ejected brass. Yes, I know you can modify your shooting position....or add some sort of case deflector, or whatever. In my view, these are all less than optimal answers.

The FS however, is truly ambidextrous...in every way and action.

Given the magazine issue (proprietary magazine versus metal GI M4 mags), VFG issues, and absolute need to be truly "mirror image" ambidextrous, my vote has to go with the FN FS2000.

If you have been looking for a good CQB gun. A gun that is an SBR size without any needed tax stamps. A gun that is as modern as tomorrow, take good look at the FS2000. It is an excellent weapon with answers to questions everyone has been trying to find. Until a better bullpup comes around, the FS2000 is the best one there is.

 

[bwframe]

Gabe Suarez on The FS2000 VS. The AUG

Excellent!
Now when are we gonna get a Gabe video to go with full-auto's and Yeager's?

 

[Papper2]

id would have been more usefull if it had been "Intro to a Bullpup"

 

[MilitaryArms]

Given the magazine issue (proprietary magazine versus metal GI M4 mags), VFG issues, and absolute need to be truly "mirror image" ambidextrous, my vote has to go with the FN FS2000.

If you have been looking for a good CQB gun. A gun that is an SBR size without any needed tax stamps. A gun that is as modern as tomorrow, take good look at the FS2000. It is an excellent weapon with answers to questions everyone has been trying to find. Until a better bullpup comes around, the FS2000 is the best one there is.

I've owned two preban AUG's for a total of about 10 years before selling them a couple of years ago. I've owned the FS2000 for several years now.

I've come to the opposite conclusion, I believe the AUG is the better rifle over all and by a thin margin.

You didn't mention clearing malfunctions from the FS2000. How do you guys setup failures to feed for class? What's your manual of arms for clearing various types of malfunctions?

The FS2000 is a closed system with the ejection port out front and away from the action. In my experience, clearing a serious malfunction is problematic and not something done very gracefully or easily. Sometimes you can drop the mag, flip up the port cover and shake the round out, but I've had live rounds get hopelessly stuck in there and it required me to field strip the rifle to clear it. Not a good thing.

Clearing malfunctions from the AUG is no harder than clearing one from an AR or similar rifle with a conventional ejection port.

I do like the ergonomics of the FS2000 and as long as it doesn't fail to feed, it's far handier in confined places. I don't believe it's truly 100% ambi as the charging handle only exists on the left side of the receiver. Not only that, it folds down so doing the AK roll to reach it with our right hand isn't very easy. It requires you to reach over the top in my experience.

Also, bang around on that charging handle of the FS2000 in the armory, you might be able to break it. You'll probably want to buy the aftermarket upgraded charging handle, they are notoriously prone to breakage.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Another thing that I dislike about the FS2000 is the fact it requires you to use STANAG aluminum magazines. It won't work with PMAGs or most other high quality polymer mags. You can rip the wipes out of the mag well but now you've disabled one of the countermeasures to prevent debris from entering the action. It's critical you keep debris out because failures to feed are difficult to clear.

I'm not into the whole sealed system thing...

The AUGs mags are reliable and well made. One can convert an AUG to use AR mags with a simple stock swap. Steyr claims they will sell the conversion stocks and have a price of $400 on them. If I were committed to the AUG, I would go with the standard AUG mags and stock up.

 

[cedartop]

Fullauto, you have more time on a bullpup than I do. I have only shot them briefly. We do have a couple of guys on staff with extensive bullpup experience. I will see what they have to say about your differences.

 

[Josh Ward]

The FS2000 is a closed system with the ejection port out front and away from the action. In my experience, clearing a serious malfunction is problematic and not something done very gracefully or easily. Sometimes you can drop the mag, flip up the port cover and shake the round out, but I've had live rounds get hopelessly stuck in there and it required me to field strip the rifle to clear it. Not a good thing.

Clearing malfunctions from the AUG is no harder than clearing one from an AR or similar rifle with a conventional ejection port.

I do like the ergonomics of the FS2000 and as long as it doesn't fail to feed, it's far handier in confined places. I don't believe it's truly 100% ambi as the charging handle only exists on the left side of the receiver. Not only that, it folds down so doing the AK roll to reach it with our right hand isn't very easy. It requires you to reach over the top in my experience.

.

It won't work with PMAGs or most other high quality polymer mags. You can rip the wipes out of the mag well but now you've disabled one of the countermeasures to prevent debris from entering the action. It's critical you keep debris out because failures to feed are difficult to clear.

The past couple weeks I've spent a fair ammount of time on a FS2000, while I do like its dimensions and ergonomics the two black eyes mentioned above by full-auto / M.A.C. are big enough issues to me to prevent me from taking it into consideration for my fighting rifle.







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