Is Jared Fogel from Subway fame dead?

[Ericpwp]

Sadly they probably don't know them.

I'm out. I can't watch this trainwreck any longer.

 

[HoughMade]

Sadly they probably don't know them.

I'm out. I can't watch this trainwreck any longer.

These kids, victims 1 through 14, I hope that someone is taking a hard look at why they were in the position to be exploited. The parents aren't necessarily additional victims in this. They could be anywhere from complicit to neglectful....but I wonder how, with proper protection and supervision, this could happen. To those who say: "you can't know where your teenager is every minute," I say 2 things: 1) say a prayer of thanks if nothing bad has happened to you kid, and 2) Yes, you can.

 

[bwframe]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

A coming fight in the "sexual revolution" will be the chipping away at age of consent laws. They will be lowered- drastically, over time, and the basis will be the claimed Constitutional rights of the minors. Not today, probably not next year, but it's coming.

I'm glad you said it so I can pile on. Gutless me...

I've been wondering when it would be appropriate to ask where the anti-RFRA crowd is on this?

You shouldn't be persecuted for who you love right?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

These kids, victims 1 through 14, I hope that someone is taking a hard look at why they were in the position to be exploited. The parents aren't necessarily additional victims in this. They could be anywhere from complicit to neglectful....but I wonder how, with proper protection and supervision, this could happen. To those who say: "you can't know where your teenager is every minute," I say 2 things: 1) say a prayer of thanks if nothing bad has happened to you kid, and 2) Yes, you can.

The charging information says it was captured with hidden cameras. Changing for a pool party, sleepover, simply going to the bathroom at a friend's house, any of those subject you to that possibility.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

A coming fight in the "sexual revolution" will be the chipping away at age of consent laws. They will be lowered- drastically, over time, and the basis will be the claimed Constitutional rights of the minors. Not today, probably not next year, but it's coming.

I doubt it. I know its the hip thing to play slippery slope with gay marraige leading to people marrying underage toasters and the like, but other than the fringe of the fringe who has pushed for anything like this?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm glad you said it so I can pile on. Gutless me...

I've been wondering when it would be appropriate to ask where the anti-RFRA crowd is on this?

You shouldn't be persecuted for who you love right?

Don't worry. We'll soon enough be regaled by the "Ain't no way it's going to happen; there's no remote indication society is moving in that direction" crowd soon enough. And you're right, what other people do in their bedrooms do not affect me is none of my business. People are born that way.

 

[Woobie]

I doubt it. I know its the hip thing to play slippery slope with gay marraige leading to people marrying underage toasters and the like, but other than the fringe of the fringe who has pushed for anything like this?

Polygamy is already being taken on. So in a way, we are sliding on something. 15 years ago you would have been laughed at for bringing that up as a possibility.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Double Standard?

Former NFL cheerleader sentenced to probation for rape | Fox News

 

[Mark 1911]

In another time Jared's concern regarding these girls wouldn't be the law, it'd be what their dads might do to him...

100% agreed. And I would be one of those dads.

 

[HoughMade]

I doubt it. I know its the hip thing to play slippery slope with gay marriage leading to people marrying underage toasters and the like, but other than the fringe of the fringe who has pushed for anything like this?

While what I said may seem like a slippery slope issue, I base this not on speculation, but upon what eggheads are already discussing- "civil rights" eggheads who are in favor, not some sort of "family values" types. It is part and parcel of the discussion of parental consent for birth control and abortion...which the civil libertarians publicly oppose.

The law has already found that there is a rebuttable presumption that 14 year olds are competent for tort liability. In Indiana, there is no minimum age for criminal liability and in other states, ages as low as 6 have been enacted for prosecution as an adult and 12 or 13 is very common. I find it hard to believe that a society that finds 14 year olds competent to give medical consent, to be liable in tort and capable of having the mens rea to commit criminal acts and be held responsible as an adult will find it a hard stretch to lower the consent limits. It's being talked about in academia.

I am not saying there will be a wholesale rejection of age of consent laws (at least no time soon), but I believe they will drift downward towards 14 and may involve the use of a rebuttable presumption that the child was not capable of consent (initially) such that a criminal defendant could claim the defense that consent was present if he can prove that the child had the mental capacity to consent.

Did everyone note the absence of gay marriage in the above discussion? These issues predate the wholesale legalization of gay marriage by quite a bit.

Can someone tell me why we believe that a 14 year old is capable of adult thought and reasoning enough to lock him up for life for murder, but isn't capable of adult thought and reasoning enough to decide who to have sex with?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While what I said may seem like a slippery slope issue, I base this not on speculation, but upon what eggheads are already discussing- "civil rights" eggheads who are in favor, not some sort of "family values" types. It is part and parcel of the discussion of parental consent for birth control and abortion...which the civil libertarians publicly oppose.

The law has already found that there is a rebuttable presumption that 14 year olds are competent for tort liability. In Indiana, there is no minimum age for criminal liability and in other states, ages as low as 6 have been enacted for prosecution as an adult and 12 or 13 is very common. I find it hard to believe that a society that finds 14 year olds competent to give medical consent, to be liable in tort and capable of having the mens rea to commit criminal acts and be held responsible as an adult will find it a hard stretch to lower the consent limits. It's being talked about in academia.

I am not saying there will be a wholesale rejection of age of consent laws (at least no time soon), but I believe they will drift downward towards 14 and may involve the use of a rebuttable presumption that the child was not capable of consent (initially) such that a criminal defendant could claim the defense that consent was present if he can prove that the child had the mental capacity to consent.

Did everyone note the absence of gay marriage in the above discussion? These issues predate the wholesale legalization of gay marriage by quite a bit.

Can someone tell me why we believe that a 14 year old is capable of adult thought and reasoning enough to lock him up for life for murder, but isn't capable of adult thought and reasoning enough to decide who to have sex with?

Good argument, but pragmatically who's going to be the public face for pedophilia?

I'd note while a 16 year old can consent to sex, they cannot consent to photograph it. Who's going to lead the charge for child pornography? Being labeled a pedo is more damaging than being confirmed a racist into today's society. There's going to have to be a major shift before those arguments about murderer=sex consent get much play in the public realm.

 

[foszoe]

Hebephilia vs pedophilia, the intense discussion of the two during the adoption of the dsm v and this article should be a starting point on where we are headed:
Pedophilia Is Not a Crime, Says Rutgers Prof Margo Kaplan | News | Philadelphia Magazine

 

[HoughMade]

Good argument, but pragmatically who's going to be the public face for pedophilia? ...

That is the question, but the issue is being recast as a matter of the rights of the minor. That makes it more palatable. What is the public reaction when an attractive female teacher is found to have been having sex with a 14 or 15 year old male student? Is there not a lot of "c'mon, that was that kid's fantasy. How can it be a crime?"

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hebephilia vs pedophilia, the intense discussion of the two during the adoption of the dsm v and this article should be a starting point on where we are headed:
Pedophilia Is Not a Crime, Says Rutgers Prof Margo Kaplan | News | Philadelphia Magazine

I looked up hebephilia. Huh. Didn't know that was it's own category.

 

[Kutnupe14]

These kids, victims 1 through 14, I hope that someone is taking a hard look at why they were in the position to be exploited. The parents aren't necessarily additional victims in this. They could be anywhere from complicit to neglectful....but I wonder how, with proper protection and supervision, this could happen. To those who say: "you can't know where your teenager is every minute," I say 2 things: 1) say a prayer of thanks if nothing bad has happened to you kid, and 2) Yes, you can.

Reminds one of Michael Jackson's troubles.

 

[HoughMade]

...and if anyone does not believe that our society has gotten more comfortable with sexualizing kids in their lower teens, a trip to the mall to see what mothers are not only buying for their kids, but suggesting for them, should be enlightening.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That is the question, but the issue is being recast as a matter of the rights of the minor. That makes it more palatable. What is the public reaction when an attractive female teacher is found to have been having sex with a 14 or 15 year old male student? Is there not a lot of "c'mon, that was that kid's fantasy. How can it be a crime?"

Sure. But it's a totally different reaction when the roles are reversed. What's the reaction when an adult male claims he was raped by an adult female?

Like I said, you make a good argument. I'm just thinking that attitudes would have to reallly shift before it could become mainstream enough to see the light of day.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Sure. But it's a totally different reaction when the roles are reversed. What's the reaction when an adult male claims he was raped by an adult female?

Like I said, you make a good argument. I'm just thinking that attitudes would have to reallly shift before it could become mainstream enough to see the light of day.

I don't think anybody's is saying such things are imminent. But when all other sexual mores are modernized, when previously thought of mental illnesses are no longer considered illnesses, and later embraced as normal, logically, how can any other remaining ones seriously be considered off limits?

As was mentioned elsewhere, look at how we're sexualizing our kids at ever younger ages. It really doesn't take a wild imagination to see how other things have advanced to accept that this one may too.

 

[rhino]

Double Standard?

Former NFL cheerleader sentenced to probation for rape | Fox News

Yes, and in my opinion there should be a double standard here and in a lot of other areas of life.

 

[HoughMade]

Sure. But it's a totally different reaction when the roles are reversed. What's the reaction when an adult male claims he was raped by an adult female?

Like I said, you make a good argument. I'm just thinking that attitudes would have to reallly shift before it could become mainstream enough to see the light of day.

Let's be clear in case I ever run for office or get hired as a pitch man for a sandwich franchise- I am in no way arguing for these things. Personally, I do not favor a lower age of consent, nor do I believe in trying kids as adults below the age of about 16 or 17.....I'm just describing what is being bandied about out there.