Is It Good For The Gun Cause To Bash Suppliers On The Open Internet?

[jamil]

Eh, I’m giving benefit of doubt. He meant something by those words. If I’m gonna disagree with him I want to be sure I’m disagreeing disagree with what he’s actually saying. So maybe within what he meant by that there contains something I hadn’t considered. I’m not opposed to being wrong.

 

[Ingomike]

That’s a different argument altogether. I am personally uninterested in CTD. I’ve never used them, or at keast if I habe there was nothing memorable about the transaction either way.

What I’m saying is that it’s silly to hold all businesses as sacrosanct just because they fit within an industry that’s under attack. That is anti-market. If someone has a bad experience with a business they have every right to talk or rant about it. It’s not like they’re helping “the enemy” by complaining about a business that they think has cheated them in some way. I really don’t understand that line of reasoning at all.

You really don’t get the idea pro gun folks should be cognizant that negative reviews may hurt pro gun suppliers and weigh out if the occurrence warrants risking that damage before posting. Then if one chooses to post such a review others certainly can express the opinion that it is a frivolous complaint.

Like I did yesterday about a beef about a $5/annual fee to shoot at a range in the city.

 

[jamil]

I looked through the last couple of years complaints. 11 in 2021 did not seem out of line for $20 million in sales and most seemed resolved. My post was related to their site reviews, google reviews, etc.

If you want to argue that people’s perception of CTD is not proportional to reality, that’s fine. I might even agree with that. My only contention is the sacrosanct part. I just don’t understand why. It doesn’t make sense why that should be on anyone’s moral compass.

 

[Ingomike]

How does one possibly relate to the other in a way that would make you doubt it? I really want to understand this moral that you think other people are missing. And obviously they are missing it. I’m missing it because I have no idea at all why all the moral language has to accompany this.

It was just interesting that the response was to call me a socialist, big brother, etc. all while accusing me of stifling their rights to speech. I was just hoping they are that adamant about their speech rights when TPTB actually do stifle their speech…

 

[gregkl]

It's like a coffee company that says you have to buy their coffee because they are veterans and send free coffee to the troops... I like my veterans as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean I have to support them when they throw people under the bus.

The veterans angle that seems to be popular right now is another story. I am thankful for vets but I'm not buying their product just because they are veteran owned. The company has to have a solid product/service, good customer service and competitive pricing.

I don't buy that particular coffee because they were/are not price competitive and I talked to them about it. They offered their coffee club but I just wanted to buy a bag now and then. Bad on me I guess. But it's not their fault shipping costs are so high so I have nothing bad to say about them, I'm just not a customer. Fortunately for me, I have a local coffee roaster that I buy from that produces great coffee and it is very fresh.

 

[jamil]

You really don’t get the idea pro gun folks should be cognizant that negative reviews may hurt pro gun suppliers and weigh out if the occurrence warrants risking that damage before posting. Then if one chooses to post such a review others certainly can express the opinion that it is a frivolous complaint.

Like I did yesterday about a beef about a $5/annual fee to shoot at a range in the city.

I think it would be wise to think before ******** on any business. I don’t think we should think of businesses as sacred cows. But also, all businesses rely on reputation to some extent. People shouldn’t be quick to **** on someone’s reputation. I don’t think that’s a bad moral for people to adopt regardless of which industry you’re talking about.

 

[Ingomike]

Well, even if they did go out of business because they **** all their customers without lube, let’s say. They don’t deserve to be in business just because they’re in this industry. It doesn’t harm the 2A if a ****y business goes under, any more than a ****y business harms the 2A for harming customers. Isn’t that a two way street then? If consumers of guns are supposed to treat gun businesses as sacrosanct because they rely on the 2A, why shouldn’t businesses consider their patrons as sacrosanct as well?

Why does this have to be taken to the extremes? I never said ANYONE was sacrosanct, you created that. Recognizing that vendors in gun world are not unlimited, particularly ranges in the cities, it is beyond the pale to suggest we not create posts painting them in negative light, saying things like I won’t be going there, you do what you want, implying it would be good if others did not go over petty little things like a silly $5 annual charge that is well published before you go?

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

What really is ridiculous is the thin skinned nature of so many here.

You mean like yours?

Congratulations. You now have a 8 page long soapboax to continue your own RANT against what you THINK hurts the 2A.

In case you were wondering, your opinions about what hurts the "2A community" are not factual. They're just your opinions.

Ranting about those who rant. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

Recognizing that vendors in gun world are not unlimited, particularly ranges in the cities

I've noticed a strong trend with you that seems to seek to create division between urban and rural members of the "2A community"

Why is that?

 

[jamil]

It was just interesting that the response was to call me a socialist, big brother, etc. all while accusing me of stifling their rights to speech. I was just hoping they are that adamant about their speech rights when TPTB actually do stifle their speech…

I don’t think this has anything to do with socialism. As I understand your position, I have no reason to think that. Or that it’s big brother. Or stifling rights to free speech even.

It looked to me more like it’s a tribal thing where you feel that as members of the 2A family, so to speak, we owe businesses that operate in this space some unilateral loyalty that we wouldn’t owe to other businesses. I don’t think that way because I don’t think we owe anything to people who haven’t earned our loyalty.

This is similar to the discussion of loyalty to the NRA. They don’t deserve our unilateral loyalty either. It must go both ways. I don’t owe a business or organization any more loyalty than they are willing to grant me. But, if they treat me in good faith, I feel like I have an obligation to reciprocate.

But only in that case. That they’re in the same family is no cause by itself for me to treat them as sacrosanct.

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

For all the weeping, wailing, and nashing of teeth over ammo shortages there sure is a lot of animosity toward the idea of thinking through and self regulating ourselves to major issues when posting negatively about 2A suppliers.

Strawman argument

 

[Ingomike]

I don’t think this has anything to do with socialism. As I understand your position, I have no reason to think that. Or that it’s big brother. Or stifling rights to free speech even.

It looked to me more like it’s a tribal thing where you feel that as members of the 2A family, so to speak, we owe businesses that operate in this space some unilateral loyalty that we wouldn’t owe to other businesses. I don’t think that way because I don’t think we owe anything to people who haven’t earned our loyalty.

This is similar to the discussion of loyalty to the NRA. They don’t deserve our unilateral loyalty either. It must go both ways. I don’t owe a business or organization any more loyalty than they are willing to grant me. But, if they treat me in good faith, I feel like I have an obligation to reciprocate.

But only in that case. That they’re in the same family is no cause by itself for me to treat them as sacrosanct.

My point could be summed up in “think before you post” “especially our limited 2A vendors, like indoor ranges”. Cannot believe that was so controversial…

 

[Ingomike]

The bathroom monkey is on my ignore list. First one on that list ever…

 

[jamil]

Why does this have to be taken to the extremes? I never said ANYONE was sacrosanct, you created that. Recognizing that vendors in gun world are not unlimited, particularly ranges in the cities, it is beyond the pale to suggest we not create posts painting them in negative light, saying things like I won’t be going there, you do what you want, implying it would be good if others did not go over petty little things like a silly $5 annual charge that is well published before you go?

I call it sacrosanct because that’s what you seemed to describe. The first post I responded to wasn’t making the point that hey, make sure you’re responsible with your criticisms because you could ruin reputations. No, you seemed to be saying that because they’re in the 2A family we shouldn’t criticize them at all or it harms the 2A somehow. Well it doesn’t. The way a company avoids criticism is that it acts above board and that’s the same free market formula whether within the 2A community or outside.

 

[jamil]

My point could be summed up in “think before you post” “especially our limited 2A vendors, like indoor ranges”. Cannot believe that was so controversial…

Well it was controversial because the language you used didn’t clearly say that. And I’d even modify it further just to say, before tarnishing someone’s reputation, make sure you’re correct. The way you said it, it sounded more like gun companies are sacred cows so never say anything bad about them. The only sacred cow I know of is American Shooters in Clarksville. They’re awesome.

 

[Ingomike]

I call it sacrosanct because that’s what you seemed to describe. The first post I responded to wasn’t making the point that hey, make sure you’re responsible with your criticisms because you could ruin reputations. No, you seemed to be saying that because they’re in the 2A family we shouldn’t criticize them at all or it harms the 2A somehow. Well it doesn’t. The way a company avoids criticism is that it acts above board and that’s the same free market formula whether within the 2A community or outside.

I said in the OP, as copied below to be helpful, was “I do not think we should ever create a thread specifically to bash any 2A supplier” and further said “and limit the negative we do in general threads to facts”. This is far from “they’re in the 2A family we shouldn’t criticize them at all” in my opinion.


“We have had several venting threads bashing even local purveyors of ranges, supplies, and training. Do theses help the overall cause of promoting gun rights, and broadening the options available to us or do they hurt the cause? I do not think we should ever create a thread specifically to bash any 2A supplier on the forum, especially those supporting the site, and limit the negative we do in general threads to facts. This is the open internet and the supplier you hurt may be one that many other members rely on.“

“Now, to what I did not say that I will be accused of. You can tell your buddies anything you want, I did not suggest any restrictions on speech, but rather that we protect those we have supplying us by not creating a full rant on the open internet because you don’t like their policies…”

 

[WebSnyper]

Because we are a small percentage of "complainers". We are one forum with 48K members of which I bet only a fraction are active in a country of 330,000,000 people.

Sure a business doesn't like bad publicity, but it's just like not patronizing a business that has a "no guns allowed" sign posted. There are not enough numbers to seriously hurt them in most cases.

Each of us needs to do what is important to us. If we don't want to buy from CTD, patronize businesses that post signs we don't agree with, watch movies because they are made in Hollywood or wear Patagonia clothing items, then don't do it. But don't think that your protest will shut them down or even make them reconsider.

If you want to tell others why you do those things, then have at it. But don't expect them to be on board. Some are just not that passionate.

Companies go out of business due to poor management, business practices, cash flow, corruption and loss of viability in the markets. If a handful of protestors can shut down a business, they were on their way out anyways. Look at PSA. They get "bashed" regularly, yet they continue to grow.

There are a lot of folks out there that aren't on any kind of forum and they buy stuff from wherever they find it. They may search a little or they may not want to put much time and effort into saving a nickel so whatever business is near the top of their web search gets the sale.

BTW, this is not directed at you Ingomike, it is a general response to this thread since I haven't posted in a few pages cuz I was stuck on post number 9,999 and wanted my 10,000th post to be on a different thread.

Agreed. I'd call it the bad restaurant in a Tourist area scenario. Very poor restaurant can survive because they have enough business from those new to an area to keep the lack of repeat business from becoming an issue, but none of the locals eat there.

Now that scenario is a bit different in these days of Yelp, etc where people can search for a place and read some recommendations before going there, but as you state, that's probably less people than the amount that pass a place on a busy road and think it looks as good as any other to try.

 

[Johnny Chimpo Shooter]

The bathroom monkey is on my ignore list. First one on that list ever…

So you're liberal with your criticism of others but can't stand it when you get called on it.

LOLOLOL

 

[BugI02]

What I’m saying is that it’s silly to hold all businesses as sacrosanct just because they fit within an industry that’s under attack. That is anti-market. If someone has a bad experience with a business they have every right to talk or rant about it. It’s not like they’re helping “the enemy” by complaining about a business that they think has cheated them in some way. I really don’t understand that line of reasoning at all.

And the same is true about the NRA with Wayne running the haberdashery show

If they really are friends of the 2A they'll ditch Wayne. If they just want to suck blood, they'll go down for the long count

 

[BugI02]

I looked through the last couple of years complaints. 11 in 2021 did not seem out of line for $20 million in sales and most seemed resolved. My post was related to their site reviews, google reviews, etc.

Did you see the ones about ordering accessories that are never received and then the difficulty of getting CTD to cancel the transaction and provide a refund. You may not know it, but it is an uncommon person who will go to the trouble of pursuing a complaint with the BBB. For every one of those complaints there will be many more that didn't get that far

That said, the pattern to me says a company that is a pass through. They will claim to have items available, take an order, and THEN try to source the item. That may work most times but for uncommon or hard to get items they just stiff the customer. There is a known similar seller on GunBroker for firearms related stuff called LGOutdoors. The pattern is that they claim to have items in stock for an auction but often fail to deliver and do not simply offer a refund but want people to hang on for how ever long it takes. I suspect that business model is even tougher because of the auction format possibly not bringing in even enough to make a profit in a fast moving market