Is it EVER ok to treat a gun like its not loaded?

[PowderMan]

I always triple check every gun thats handed to me. Even if I watch someone clear it. Visual inspection and racking the slide a few times. Its a good habit to have. I always cringe when I see people pick up guns and not even check and start pointing it and pulling the trigger. You never know what could happen.

 

[cedartop]

Toss out the "treat every gun as if it's always loaded" rule ... some have already covered it here but I'll say it as well. The "treat every gun as if it's always loaded" rule sets up a subconscious reasoning that you can treat an unloaded gun differently than a loaded gun. The rule is just plain bad logic and a lie that forces reasoned minds to do mental gymnastics.

Someone asked me this before and here was my response:

Yep, you and Mackey are right on about this. Do I check the status of every gun I pick up? I certainly do. If EVERY gun is always loaded, I hope you don't have to use a unloaded (loaded) one to defend your life.

 

[TaunTaun]

It was an incident like this that finally got my wife to see my viewpoint of always checking a firearm. We were helping her parents move, and she pulled out her dad's .22 rifle. When she swept myself and our pastor, I busted her on it after knocking the barrel up and away from our faces. She stated that her dad never left it loaded. I demanded that she check it. Our pastor, who was former law enforcement fully endorsed this idea and backed me up. She threw the bolt and lo and behold, a .22lr round came bouncing out. Since then, she has adhered to the 4 rules religiously.

 

[Bill B]

I'm going to get blasted for saying this, but the OP did nothing wrong. He treated the firearm as if it was loaded by keeping it pointed in a safe direction and keeping his finger away from the trigger.
I submit that there is a greater chance for ND in loading and unloading a semi-auto (I know nothing about revolvers) than there is in what the OP did.
Which scenario has a higher chance of ND:
1. my friend has a new carry gun, he takes it out of the holster and safely hands it to me saying "feel the balance" I take it from him and point it at the wall, and then hand it back to him. We are at my home and nobody else is there.
2. same situation, except I clear it when I take it from him, even though that makes it kind of hard to feel the balance, and he loads it when I hand it back

 

[Hohn]

I think Mackey's excellent point is being somewhat glossed over.


I don't like the "always loaded" attitude for a couple reasons. For one, it makes hypocrites of us gun owners. We spend a lot of political capital trying to convince fellow citizens that guns are tools, that they cannot take action by themselves. They are inanimate objects that only do what they are told via human input (intended or otherwise).

Then someone comes into the "gun culture" and we start going back on all this, beating them over the head if the DON'T act like the gun has some magical power to act on its own.

This is why Rule #1, is imo a little suspect. This is because it focuses on the gun rather than the PERSON.

I'm OK with "treat a gun like it's loaded at all times," but Cooper's formulation of the rule (while well-intentioned) is not only demonstrably false, it's self-defeating.


Besides, how can we square the apparent contradiction between "always carry with one in the chamber" and Rule #1 in Cooper's formulation? In the former case, we emphasize that clearly a gun might not be loaded, and that could actually be problematic.

I'm still not going to sweep someone, but not because I think my eyes don't work or my touch is impaired. I do it because I respect people enough not to make them uncomfortable. I also do it because no matter how much I know in my brain time and again that something is as clear as my human ability to verify it, there's a part of me that is in awe of the consequences of being wrong, even just once.

Again, it's not that the gun is always loaded. It's that I'm a fallible human.


Semantics, perhaps-- but words have meaning. There's a lot of meaning we express in not just what we communicate, but how. How we say it matter as much as what we say.

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm going to get blasted for saying this, but the OP did nothing wrong. He treated the firearm as if it was loaded by keeping it pointed in a safe direction and keeping his finger away from the trigger.
I submit that there is a greater chance for ND in loading and unloading a semi-auto (I know nothing about revolvers) than there is in what the OP did.

No blasting at all.

OP was safe regardless if the gun was loaded or not. I'd prefer this over the guy that coonfingers an empty gun. Why focus on the gun an not your actions?


Wait, I'm just repeating everything said in the past 8 pages, so.... bacon.

 

[JettaKnight]

If one ASSUMES a firearm is unloaded, it becomes easy to become complacent!
You assume firearm is empty, get into B.S.ing about guns, decide to feel the trigger pull. You still ASSUME the gun is clear, and ASSUME you are trained in a safe direction, (Likely a wall or a window!), and you squeeze...


The neighbor is now dead, because you ASSUMED!

We've ALL had a complacent moment, and if you are worth a crap, you'll thank God your brain fart didn't cost someone their life!

Not in this case.

The OP never touched the trigger. So unless it's a 807 at Shootrite there's no foul. The OP handled the gun safely and treated it with respect.

Want to test the trigger? GET A SAND BARREL!! Get into the habit of using it and not depending on clearing the gun. Better yet, use it when clearing and loading your guns.

 

[JettaKnight]

Assumption is the mother of all forkups!

Yeah I know. My bad.

So don't assume it's loaded and don't assume it's unloaded.

The more I think about Cooper's four rules the more I hate #1. In an SD situation, treating an unloaded gun is bad.


Here comes my final (you hope) word on the matter:

"The state of the gun should not influence how you handle it."



PS: OP you're getting to your fifty posts!

 

[HoughMade]

Not in this case.

The OP never touched the trigger. So unless it's a 807 at Shootrite there's no foul. The OP handled the gun safely and treated it with respect.

Want to test the trigger? GET A SAND BARREL!! Get into the habit of using it and not depending on clearing the gun. Better yet, use it when clearing and loading your guns.

Good, he followed a couple of rules.

However, he specifically stated that he believed it was unloaded based upon his assumption that the owner would have cleared it. He never said he saw him clear it (and from context, it's clear he would have said he witnessed the clearing if he had). So, he was assuming the gun was unloaded, and did not know that it was. I'm glad he pointed it in a safe direction and keep his finger off the trigger....but getting into the habit of assuming guns are empty- not good.

 

[Smokepole]

No, always, Always, ALWAYS, double check to make sure it is clear. I do even when I am at the gun shop and they just checked it for clear.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OP, The rule around our house is: Never handle a gun until YOU have verified that it is unloaded. And if you aren't old enough, NEVER handle one that Mom or Dad have not handed to you.

I have 3 kids 13 and under and they all must know the answer to this question: What is the most dangerous gun? Answer: The UNLOADED one. When I ask the question of other people (or my kids do) and get the incredulous look and the obvious response I say, "the one that you ASSUME is unloaded." And the only way to be 100% sure is to clear it yourself. Your FIL brought several guns in and laid them down and you ASSUMED that he cleared them all. What if he missed one? What if he did as you and ASSUMED, based on his well known habits that they all were as he had left them, but didn't know that someone had handled one or more after he put them up last and left one or more loaded. The scenario that you recounted for us is an Accidental Discharge looking for a place to happen.

Remember 'assumption' is the mother of all F*** ups. And the prelude to disaster. Or more hopefully, only embarrassment.

 

[Smokepole]

I think Mackey's excellent point is being somewhat glossed over.


I don't like the "always loaded" attitude for a couple reasons. For one, it makes hypocrites of us gun owners. We spend a lot of political capital trying to convince fellow citizens that guns are tools, that they cannot take action by themselves. They are inanimate objects that only do what they are told via human input (intended or otherwise).

Then someone comes into the "gun culture" and we start going back on all this, beating them over the head if the DON'T act like the gun has some magical power to act on its own.

This is why Rule #1, is imo a little suspect. This is because it focuses on the gun rather than the PERSON.

I'm OK with "treat a gun like it's loaded at all times," but Cooper's formulation of the rule (while well-intentioned) is not only demonstrably false, it's self-defeating.


Besides, how can we square the apparent contradiction between "always carry with one in the chamber" and Rule #1 in Cooper's formulation? In the former case, we emphasize that clearly a gun might not be loaded, and that could actually be problematic.

I'm still not going to sweep someone, but not because I think my eyes don't work or my touch is impaired. I do it because I respect people enough not to make them uncomfortable. I also do it because no matter how much I know in my brain time and again that something is as clear as my human ability to verify it, there's a part of me that is in awe of the consequences of being wrong, even just once.

Again, it's not that the gun is always loaded. It's that I'm a fallible human.


Semantics, perhaps-- but words have meaning. There's a lot of meaning we express in not just what we communicate, but how. How we say it matter as much as what we say.

I understand where you are coming from, we do go a long way to point out that a gun is simply a tool. But IMHO, the hypocrisy argument is a specious one. A gun IS a tool, though more like a power tool. When you have a power tool it won't work unless it is plugged in. THEN when a human pulls the trigger or flips the switch it does it job. If a gun isn't loaded it won't work until it is loaded. THEN when a human pulls the trigger it does it's job.

When you go to inspect, repair, make a change to or otherwise coonfinger a power tool, you check to make sure that it is NOT PLUGGED IN so that you don't experience an unfortunate accident, that would hopefully result only in embarrassment. In otherwords, you TREAT IT IS AS IF IT IS PLUGGED IN until you have VERIFIED that it is in fact not. When you go to "inspect, repair, make a change to or otherwise coonfinger" A GUN it only makes sense that you TREAT IT AS IF IT IS LOADED until you have VERIFIED that it is in fact not. In otherwords you treat the gun AND the power tool as though they are ready to go until you verify that they are in fact not. Common Sense.

As far as carrying with a round chambered, an analogy to power tools can again be employed. In order for a power tool to operate it must be plugged in. If it ain't plugged in, it ain't gonna work. Once plugged in, you need only flip the switch or pull the trigger and "VOILA" it does it's job. In the case of a gun, it very obviously must be loaded (plugged in). If it ain't loaded (plugged in) it ain't gonna work. Once plugged in, you need only pull the trigger and "VOILA" it does it's job. Ever gone to use a power tool, maybe in a hurry, and you pick it up and pull the trigger and . . . . Nothing? Oops! wasn't plugged in. Think of carrying with one in the tube as plugging in the power tool in preparation of it's use. When you strap on the gun the only time you should be clearing leather is when you intend to use it. Period. Think of keeping a round chambered when carrying as plugging in the tool in anticipation of it's use. You don't want to experience needing to use the tool and pulling the trigger and getting . . . . NOTHING! Ooops! But this time instead of turning EMBARRASSINGLY red, you could turn BLOOD RED.

This is another way of looking at the issues that you bring up. My . Take it as you will.

Smoke

 

[Smokepole]

I really dislike the new mantra the guns are always loaded. That is simple an untruth.
Honestly. All guns are not loaded.
I know people mean well when they say this, but it's simply false.
Without a doubt. You MUST ALWAYS treat an assembled gun as if it were loaded.

Did you read what you typed? The two lines that are highlighted say EXACTLY THE SAME THING! The wording is just slightly different. You moved "always" to the front and added "assembled". Beyond structure the two sentiments convey the same EXACT message.

If you assume that all guns are "always loaded" you are going to "always treat an assembled gun as if it were loaded/" A distinction without a difference. SHEEESH

 

[HoughMade]

Did you read what you typed? The two lines that are highlighted say EXACTLY THE SAME THING! The wording is just slightly different. You moved "always" to the front and added "assembled". Beyond structure the two sentiments convey the same EXACT message.

If you assume that all guns are "always loaded" you are going to "always treat an assembled gun as if it were loaded/" A distinction without a difference. SHEEESH

No, they are not.

The first is a blatant falsehood.

The second reflects a rational safety rule....but I would add "...until you have personally verified that it is not loaded"

 

[ATM]

Nobody believes that all guns are loaded, no matter how many times they repeat the silly mantra.

The glaring conflict in this and every other thread on the subject is laughable. Those who promote keeping the mantra are generally the ones who also place a higher priority on clearing a firearm than in following the actual gun handling rules once they've convinced themselves it's unloaded (by clearing it themselves and racking the slide 42 times).

Rules 2, 3 and 4 are plenty to prevent tragedy without adding the false premise up front that one's belief in current loaded status even matters.

 

[philbert001]

Not in this case.

The OP never touched the trigger. So unless it's a 807 at Shootrite there's no foul. The OP handled the gun safely and treated it with respect.

Want to test the trigger? GET A SAND BARREL!! Get into the habit of using it and not depending on clearing the gun. Better yet, use it when clearing and loading your guns.

I'm not saying he did "wrong", per se, but that he could have been more safe, by personally checking the weapon. I know when I pick up a firearm that isn't mine, I'm guaranteed to do 2 things, (after verifying clear). 1. I'm going to look down the sights, (While pointing in a safe direction, as it's still loaded per rule 1.), and 2. I'm going to feel the trigger. (After asking owner if it's ok!)

If I used a sand barrel every time I dry fired a firearm, my dryfire practice would be all but worthless.

Firearms are inherently dangerous if mistreated. We all do what we can to reduce the risk of an ND. One of the FIRST and best things you can do, is verify an empty chamber!

Every gun is always loaded IS a solid rule, as it removes the, "I didn't know it was loaded" excuse. It also helps to reinforce, "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.", and "Never point the muzzle at anything you are unwilling to destroy.", by implying that it's ALWAYS a loaded gun.! They all go hand in hand, and back each other up!

(BTW, Anyone who thinks "Every firearm is ALWAYS loaded.", is not a solid rule to live by, please PM me when you will be at a range anywhere in NE Indiana, so I can stay home!)

 

[philbert001]

"The state of the gun should not influence how you handle it."

I agree completely, but how is this any different than saying to treat every gun as if it were loaded?

 

[philbert001]

Perhaps the OP's father in law only jumped on him because he had NOT in fact cleared the firearm before setting it on the table, and was unsure of the OP's firearm safety practices, so he hollered at him, so he could ensure everyone's safety!

 

[ATM]

...Every gun is always loaded IS a solid rule, as it removes the, "I didn't know it was loaded" excuse.

Solid rules have nothing to do with negating ridiculous excuses, they actually minimize danger.

It also helps to reinforce, "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.", and "Never point the muzzle at anything you are unwilling to destroy.", by implying that it's ALWAYS a loaded gun.! They all go hand in hand, and back each other up!

It does nothing to reinforce, the muzzle rule stands on its own because following it minimizes danger. If you really need a first rule that does nothing by itself, I'd suggest something more truthful like:
Rule #1 - Seriously, unloading the gun doesn't mean you should ignore these.

(BTW, Anyone who thinks "Every firearm is ALWAYS loaded.", is not a solid rule to live by, please PM me when you will be at a range anywhere in NE Indiana, so I can stay home!)

Stay home then, even the folks who support keeping the mantra don't believe it. If you value a nonsense mantra ("Rule" #1) higher than following the actual safe gun handling practices (Rules 2-4), your understanding of risk mitigation is lacking.

 

[jamil]

Nobody believes that all guns are loaded, no matter how many times they repeat the silly mantra.

The glaring conflict in this and every other thread on the subject is laughable. Those who promote keeping the mantra are generally the ones who also place a higher priority on clearing a firearm than in following the actual gun handling rules once they've convinced themselves it's unloaded (by clearing it themselves and racking the slide 42 times).

Rules 2, 3 and 4 are plenty to prevent tragedy without adding the false premise up front that one's belief in current loaded status even matters.

I was wondering when you'd chime in. I recall a few times you've expressed this. I can't say I completely disagree.

#1 is just about mindset, not action. Maybe it's overemphasized and 2,3 and 4 truly are all you need. But the mindset policy doesn't hurt. If people need to rack the slide 42 times to feel it's safe, at least it's safe. Doesn't cause me any harm.

Whatever action you're taking with the gun, handling it, dry fire, coon-fingering, defensively deploying, range practice, maintenance, rules 2-4 notwithstanding, it's more advantageous to know the state than not. But going so far to say all guns are always loaded overstates the rule.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Nobody believes that all guns are loaded, no matter how many times they repeat the silly mantra.

The glaring conflict in this and every other thread on the subject is laughable. Those who promote keeping the mantra are generally the ones who also place a higher priority on clearing a firearm than in following the actual gun handling rules once they've convinced themselves it's unloaded (by clearing it themselves and racking the slide 42 times).

Rules 2, 3 and 4 are plenty to prevent tragedy without adding the false premise up front that one's belief in current loaded status even matters.

Pretty much nailed it. All of my guns are not loaded. I treat each of them like they are loaded to avoid an AD/ND. I see no problem at all with handling a firearm while it is loaded, after all I am treating unloaded guns as if they were loaded so why would I treat my loaded guns any differently.