Is it EVER ok to treat a gun like its not loaded?

[JettaKnight]

I sell guns and try to be very safety conscious. EVERY gun that I hand to a customer is cleared. I usually hand over handguns with the slide locked back. If I show a gun to someone, put it back in the display case, show a second gun, and then go back to showing the first gun-it gets cleared again.

That's just good safety and etiquette, and you work with "an unknown quantity".

And I as a the receiver will always clear the gun myself, because I don't trust you.

My prefered method is the pinky test at a sand barrel.


Oh, OP - does he have a sand barrel for use as a clearing station? If not, when's his birthday?

 

[JettaKnight]

There is no such thing as an unloaded gun if the gun is assembled.

1. Every gun is always loaded (especially when your sure it isn't)
2. Never point it at something unless you want to kill it
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to pull it.
4. Don't pull the trigger until you're sure of the target and background.
It sounds to me like you followed the four rules. By keeping it pointed in a safe direction you were treating it as if it were loaded (rules 1 & 2) and by keeping your finger off the trigger you followed 3 & 4.

The gun is ALWAYS loaded, even the empty ones.

OK, that one doesn't even make sense.

They're ALWAYS loaded.

That's just as stupid as saying, "give 110%". It's impossible. If this was true, no one would ever buy ammo, or clean guns or change magazines. Only Jesus could master such a trick.

If you go by the rule that every gun is loaded and follow proper procedures in safe gun handling, then more than likely you possess common sense enough to handle the gun accordingly....

How is believing in magic common sense?

EVERY gun is loaded!

Is this the last one? please!





As to the OP, I see:

1. Safe direction: check
2. Finger off trigger: check
3. Gun unloaded: assumed

Wait, how is this different from handling a loaded gun that one may carry on his person? Of course, it depends on how you define "looking at it".

Hey OP, sounds like you picked the right girl. But, his house, his rules.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Toss out the "treat every gun as if it's always loaded" rule ... some have already covered it here but I'll say it as well. The "treat every gun as if it's always loaded" rule sets up a subconscious reasoning that you can treat an unloaded gun differently than a loaded gun. The rule is just plain bad logic and a lie that forces reasoned minds to do mental gymnastics.

Someone asked me this before and here was my response:

Plain and simple, when it comes to teaching others about guns and gun safety, I prefer to deal with the truth. I think the "traditional" rule number one ("Treat every gun as if it's loaded") is a dangerous crutch to lean on since it is based on a lie or relies on an illusion. Telling lies or relying on lies (no matter how well intentioned) cuts into your credibility as an instructor and insults the sutdent's intelligence. More importantly it subconsciously sets up the premise that an unloaded gun can be treated differently than a loaded gun. I'm not a psychology major and I don't think you need to be one to understand that setting up an illogical dichotomy in a student's mind is not conducive to promoting safe behavior.

Besides, there are times when you must do things with an unloaded gun that you would not do with a loaded gun (cleaning, dry-fire practice, practice drawing from conealment, function check, etc.). How can the student reconcile those actions with traditional Rule #1 when deep down, in the logical part of his brain, he knows that the gun is unloaded (otehrwise he would never, in a million years be doing those things)?

Thankfully I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Here is a man that understands and is much more eloquent than me:

On Safety

Safety Rules. Again. Until everyone gets them.

When are we going to give up on this "Rule One" nonsense?

For the record, here's what I emphasize with my new shooters:

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction no matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded.
2. Finger off the trigger no matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded until you have made the conscious decision to make the shot.
3. Be aware of your target and everything downrange no matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded.
4. Know the condition of your weapon (is it loaded or unloaded?) for the sole purpose of confirming that the gun is loaded. In other words, you only confirm a loaded gun. You do not confirm an unloaded gun (an irrelevant condition).

I also tell my shooters that my Rule 1 will save them if they forget all the other rules.

Hope this helps.

 

[echoagain]

Just a follow-up question to satisfy my curiosity...... Do you transport loaded handguns to the range that are not holstered?

individual compartment in my range bag

 

[looney2ns]

I really dislike the new mantra the guns are always loaded. That is simple an untruth.
Honestly. All guns are not loaded.
I know people mean well when they say this, but it's simply false.
Without a doubt. You MUST ALWAYS treat an assembled gun as if it were loaded.

This new thing reminds me of how "they" tried to protect kids from the scourge of AIDS by telling them that the disease would be rampant if they remained sexually active and/or did not use protection. As a child of the 80s, I can tell you it didn't take us long to realize that they didn't know what they were talking about.

This "always loaded" crap could also water down the real rules.
In a SHTF situation, your "always loaded" gun may leave an ignorant person unarmed.
Think about it.

To the OP:

Im sure it stung to be corrected by a future father-in-law. But I would guess that he was trying to learn ya. Because he IS the father figure, and he IS going to trust you with his future grand kids. He cared enough to do the right thing. Even if that meant hurting feelings.
As a father myself, I can almost say for certain that he did what he did because he loves you.

New? Uh, hardly new.

 

[jamil]

I was at my fiancée's parents' place and her dad and I are getting ready to go shooting. Her dad brings a few guns into the room, including a Star Model B, puts them on the table, and walks out of the room.

Now I'm not stupid. I know her dad would never place a gun on a table and walk out of the room without clearing it first. He's a safety nut when it comes to his guns. So when he comes back and says that's everything I pick up the Star.

I point the gun in a safe direction and keep my finger off the trigger. He just loses it and starts yelling at me about not being safe with guns because I didn't clear it before I picked it up and looked at it and that I should always treat a gun like its loaded (I pointed the gun in a safe direction and kept my finger off the trigger).

Now that leads me to ask, was I safe with the gun and is it ever ok to treat a gun like its not loaded?

It's just a mindset. A psychological tool that helps provide an extra safety for handling potentially deadly objects. The gun is loaded until it's unloaded. If you always think that way, you won't go doing things with guns that you might tend to do with them unloaded.

Listen to all the people who have posted how automatic it is to clear a firearm before handling it. After you've developed that "it's loaded" mindset, it feels odd to pick up a firearm without first checking it. That helps you handle firearms safely. Your future father in law recognized you don't have that yet. That's probably why he went off on you. You neglected to spend the few seconds it takes to clear it, and instead you trusted that someone else already did it. That's the kind of thing that some fathers have lost daughters over. So if he would have mentioned to you that it was loaded, would you still have picked it up and pointed it?

But to answer the other part of the question, of course there are times when you treat a gun like it's not loaded. Sometimes you do things with guns you wouldn't do with loaded guns. Dry-firing comes to mind, cleaning, etc. But you don't do those things until after you've completed a process where you make it safe.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I treat all guns as if they are loaded, so why do I need to rack the slide or anything. In my mind it is loaded until I do those other things and then I still treat it as if loaded.

 

[Sgtusmc]

I treat all guns as if they are loaded, so why do I need to rack the slide or anything. In my mind it is loaded until I do those other things and then I still treat it as if loaded.

It's not that you have to rack the slide for personal knowledge that it's loaded. Thumb check, or observing the chambered round indicator does it for me if I'm putting the gun on for the day. No need to unload just to reload. At a friends house though, I clear my weapons before handing it to them. Doing that may be your friends first observation of what gun safety entails. If I'm checking out a friends gun then I clear it as well because I want to observe the trigger pull.

 

[BGDave]

A little first hand experience here. I had loaned a Ruger Security Six to a co-worker. (hog hunting back up) When he returned it he dumped the cartridges into his hand and gave it to me. I noticed he didn't use the ejector rod, so I immediately opened the cylinder to check it. He was greatly offended that I didn't trust him. That is until he saw only five cartridges in his hand. Number six was still in the firearm. Moral of that story is two-fold. Always use the ejector rod on a revolver and always verify the gun is empty. It's not a matter of trust, it's the right thing to do.

 

[bobbittle]

How long were you looking at it before he went off on you? Seconds? Minutes? Did you have adequate time to clear the weapon before he said something?

It seems you didn't violate the 4 rules, but could have been safer.

 

[philbert001]

As to the OP, I see:

1. Safe direction: check
2. Finger off trigger: check
3. Gun unloaded: assumed

Assumption is the mother of all forkups!

 

[philbert001]

If one ASSUMES a firearm is unloaded, it becomes easy to become complacent!
You assume firearm is empty, get into B.S.ing about guns, decide to feel the trigger pull. You still ASSUME the gun is clear, and ASSUME you are trained in a safe direction, (Likely a wall or a window!), and you squeeze...


The neighbor is now dead, because you ASSUMED!

We've ALL had a complacent moment, and if you are worth a crap, you'll thank God your brain fart didn't cost someone their life!

 

[grasshopperlegs]

In every class I took the number (1) thing was said was, treat every gun,weapon as if it is loaded. This means any.

 

[HistoryGuy]

If he is so much into safety, why did he lay them down and walk out? That question nags at me. Unless he wanted to see what you would do.

That has bugged me every day since the issue we had that day. He's a good man, but I wouldn't put it past him to test me like that.

 

[HistoryGuy]

Sorry, kid... He's right.
You done ungood.
I thought we had this talk once before?

Finger off trigger, gun pointed in safe direction, hammer not cocked... I was as safe as I could be other wise.

 

[HistoryGuy]

I really dislike the new mantra the guns are always loaded. That is simple an untruth.
Honestly. All guns are not loaded.
I know people mean well when they say this, but it's simply false.
Without a doubt. You MUST ALWAYS treat an assembled gun as if it were loaded.

Im sure it stung to be corrected by a future father-in-law. But I would guess that he was trying to learn ya. Because he IS the father figure, and he IS going to trust you with his future grand kids. He cared enough to do the right thing. Even if that meant hurting feelings.
As a father myself, I can almost say for certain that he did what he did because he loves you.

I agree with your first statement.

And yeah he was just trying to keep me safe, I just think he over reacted a little bit. I forgot to visually check the chamber to make sure it was empty (I was 99.9% sure it was), but I was completely safe otherwise.

 

[HistoryGuy]

Assumption is the mother of all forkups!

Yeah I know. My bad.

 

[SaintsNSinners]

A lower is a gun but it cant go boom...



Yep its safe to assume a lower wont go boom

 

[danielson]

Common sense reigns supreme, and the more of a hardass you are on the 4 rules, the less of a chance someones gonna get hurt on your watch.

 

[JetGirl]

Finger off trigger, gun pointed in safe direction, hammer not cocked... I was as safe as I could be other wise.

Nope... How have I always 100% of the time handed you (or anyone you've seen me interact with) a firearm? When you first talked about shopping around, I know we talked about never taking one from someone's hand without verifying "clear" for yourself. That goes for table pickups, too.
If you made a judgment error by relying on anyone else (even a "safety nut"), don't defend it. Just file it away in your gray matter under "things to change into a good habit" and go from there... (We all start somewhere)...Checking for yourself even if the thing is handed to you with the action opened.