INGO member in handcuffs

[Roadie]

The ironic thing in all this is that the long gun has been cited as grabbing the negative attention by several people on this thread, yet IT doesn't require a license to carry...

 

[Indy317]

I support the right to drive around without a liscense and not risk tickets and fines for traffic violations.

I support the right to not have to stop for red lights, to drive whatever speed one wants, to drive on whatever side the road a person chooses, to not have to stop for stop signs, and to not have to carry insurance on my vehicle, or plate it for that matter.

 

[03mustgt]

What amazes me is how some here are so vehemently against how the OC'ers were treated at this event but don't bat an eye or defend using bs probable cause to pull people over for fishing expeditions. If you've got a burnt out license plate light, why you could be drunk, a dope dealer, an axe murderer, a serial killer, etc. When the inevitable 21 questions arise, (Can I search your car, have you been drinking, where are you coming from, where are you going, did you just kill someone, etc.) those are all reasonable because a burnt out bulb is probable cause. I mean, just look at all the bad guys we get off the street this way. We all want LEO's to get the bad guys off the streets, right? Who cares if we bastardize the 4th amendment to get it done?

By the way, I support the right to drive around with a burnt out tail light while receiving NOTHING more than a ticket for that offense and being sent on your merry way. I support the right to OC a ma deuce down the sidewalk if you've got the muscles to do it. Just point out some of the irony I'm seeing here.

1) If you drive with a license plate light bulb out, you are in violation of the law, which provides probable cause for an LEO to stop your vehicle and Identify you. I have never wrote a ticket for this, but have stopped many cars for it. If you dont like it get the the law changed.

2) Practice saying this word. "NO"

3) If you get an OWI because you were stopped for a light bulb out then fix your bulb or dont drive drunk.

4) Please explain to me how this is a BS probable cause?

 

[hornadylnl]

I support the right to not have to stop for red lights, to drive whatever speed one wants, to drive on whatever side the road a person chooses, to not have to stop for stop signs, and to not have to carry insurance on my vehicle, or plate it for that matter.

You clearly understand that isn't my position. My position is that the 4th amendment is being bastardized to use burnt out light bulbs to violate 4th amendment rights.

I have no problem having to maintain a safe vehicle. I have a problem when a bulb waives my liberties. The same way I have a problem with being harassed for lawfully caring a firearm.

 

[hornadylnl]

1) If you drive with a license plate light bulb out, you are in violation of the law, which provides probable cause for an LEO to stop your vehicle and Identify you. I have never wrote a ticket for this, but have stopped many cars for it. If you dont like it get the the law changed.

2) Practice saying this word. "NO"

3) If you get an OWI because you were stopped for a light bulb out then fix your bulb or dont drive drunk.

4) Please explain to me how this is a BS probable cause?

If you are going to tell me that light bulbs aren't used for fishing expeditions, than you are being dishonest. You've said right here that you don't ticket for it. Ticket the driver and leave him be. I'm sure our founders felt that a broken buggy wheel spoke was worthy of harassment.

Sorry for jacking this thread. My point in this is that we need to be equally irate at all violations of our rights, not pick and choose which ones we value.

 

[hornadylnl]

As was proven in this thread, look where telling an officer no gets you.

 

[down3green]

4) Please explain to me how this is a BS probable cause?

.

I'll tell you. Probable cause suggests evidence of criminal activity, not just of a regulatory "infraction."


.

 

[finity]

1) If you drive with a license plate light bulb out, you are in violation of the law, which provides probable cause for an LEO to stop your vehicle and Identify you. I have never wrote a ticket for this, but have stopped many cars for it. If you dont like it get the the law changed.

2) Practice saying this word. "NO"

3) If you get an OWI because you were stopped for a light bulb out then fix your bulb or dont drive drunk.

4) Please explain to me how this is a BS probable cause?

Because it's a frickin' LIGHT BULB! & it's not even a light bulb that has ANYTHING to do with being able to operate the vehicle safely. It would be like stopping a vehicle for having a burnt out dome light.

I'm glad you don't give tickets for it. It's an asinine law. Why do you pull cars over for it then? Just to be a good neighbor & let them know it's out? Or do you do what Hornadylnl is saying many cops do & use it as a pretext for a fishing expedition to find PC on something you otherwise wouldn't have known about? If you were just being neighborly you wouldn't need for the person to identify themselves, would you?

Please don't try to use the "if you've got nothing to hide..." argument that you have already implied in your above post. There's a valid reason for the 4A.

 

[ProLibertate]

As was proven in this thread, look where telling an officer no gets you.

This is a discussion. There are two sides. More of the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality?

Did you really just expect anyone to just roll over for your opinion?

 

[PatriotPride]

This thread has some hardcore threadjacks.

 

[finity]

This thread has some hardcore threadjacks.

What did you expect in a thread that has over 900 posts?

I'm amazed that it's stayed on track as well as it has. Or that it hasn't been closed yet due to the subject matter.

 

[hornadylnl]

This is a discussion. There are two sides. More of the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality?

Did you really just expect anyone to just roll over for your opinion?

An officer here gave us the advice to use the word no. The person from the op who was cuffed did exactly that. Where did it get him? Harassment and a violation of his rights.

The biggest beef made in this thread is that when we assert our rights, we are often met with harassment and intimidation. As was asked before, what is our recourse here? File a complaint? While pretty easy, most don't put a whole lot of faith in that process. Lawyer up? Do only the wealthy who can afford lawyers deserve to be free from harassment?

What needs to change is the mentality of those enforcing the law and the power of the citizens to be able to resist harassment. While advice such as "comply now and fight it later" is pretty sound but it doesn't do you much good at the moment you are being stripped of your rights. We can only hope that those violating our rights will be disciplined later. Again I don't have much faith in that process. Isn't Bisard still wearing a badge?

 

[03mustgt]

If you are going to tell me that light bulbs aren't used for fishing expeditions, than you are being dishonest. You've said right here that you don't ticket for it. Ticket the driver and leave him be. I'm sure our founders felt that a broken buggy wheel spoke was worthy of harassment.

Sorry for jacking this thread. My point in this is that we need to be equally irate at all violations of our rights, not pick and choose which ones we value.

How is pulling someone over for a violation harassment? If you dont like the fact that the current laws allow this then get them changed.

This is not a random stop, it is for a valid reason. I personally do not cite for it because I think it is petty to give someone a ticket for that, especially in this economy.

 

[03mustgt]

.

I'll tell you. Probable cause suggests evidence of criminal activity, not just of a regulatory "infraction."


.

It is an infraction, but it is still a violation of the law and gives an officer PC to make a traffic stop on the vehicle.

 

[mrjarrell]

How is pulling someone over for a violation harassment? If you dont like the fact that the current laws allow this then get them changed.

This is not a random stop, it is for a valid reason. I personally do not cite for it because I think it is petty to give someone a ticket for that, especially in this economy.

If you're not citing them then why are you pulling them over?
Sounds like you're fishing, to me. Or are you just being kind?

 

[03mustgt]

If you're not citing them then why are you pulling them over?
Sounds like you're fishing, to me. Or are you just being kind?

So you are saying that I should write a ticket for every license plate light that I see out? Thats great PR for a dept.

Just because I dont write someone a citation means I am fishing?

License Plate lights, speeding, tail lights out, etc, it is my job to ask questions and look at the BIGGER PICTURE. Every stop I make I am fishing. Would you rather me let the drunk driver go down the road where they could potentially kill someone or take him off the road when I stop him for a license plate light out and smell the alcohol?

Remember driving is a PRIVELEDGE, not a right.

 

[mrjarrell]

There's a world of difference between having a burnt out light and swerving through traffic. At least you're honest about using minutia for fishing expeditions.

 

[dross]

It is an infraction, but it is still a violation of the law and gives an officer PC to make a traffic stop on the vehicle.

Everyone here understands this. Here's what we don't like.

Officer sees burnt out license bulb.

Officer has a choice: Let the vehicle go, or stop it.

Why stop it? We understand the law allows you to. But why would you? Perhaps you'll stop a drunk driver, or a felon. Okay.

You pull over a citizen. You don't smell liqour. Everything seems to be in order. You ask a few questions the citizen doesn't have to answer. The citizen has an attitude with you, and keeps asking if he's free to go.

I actually have a slight problem with you asking questions that are none of your business, but up to this point you're mostly okay in my book, though to me, you've already pushed the envelope.

Now, what do you do with this uncooperative citizen? The ONLY right thing at this point is to let him go with a warning. If you write a ticket for a license bulb, you're a jerk who is enforcing the tiniest of violations. If you get belligerent, order him out of the car, repeat questions that are none of your business as if they are commands, or any other escalations that demonstrate your power, then you are a menace to honest citizens.

It was fine for the police to approach the group, and it was fine to ask for their LTCHs, and it was even fine to wonder if they were seeing an automatic weapon. But to put a guy in handcuffs because the cop didn't like his legal handgun in condition one makes the cop a menace. If I put someone in handcuffs as a citizen, I'd be facing criminal charges. A cop that does it because his ego is bruised should also be facing criminal charges. If he uses "officer safety" as his reasoning, when it's obvious from his other actions it was clearly not for that, he's a liar, AND a criminal and he's using the benefit of the doubt we give to officers of the law with their power to salve his own petty ego.

He should be fired at the least. Handcuffing someone is A VERY BIG DEAL. It's not just a momentary inconvenience it is literally PUTTING SOMEONE IN CHAINS and you ought to have a damned good LEGAL reason for it. Refusing to perform an unsafe act with your firearm and hurting an officer's feelings ain't enough.

How is this not obvious?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

it is my job to ask questions

Remember, guys, they get to ask, but we don't have to answer.

What kind of parrot should you be?

 

[finity]

So you are saying that I should write a ticket for every license plate light that I see out? Thats great PR for a dept.

Umm no.

He is saying you shouldn't pull them over at all if you're not going to write a ticket in the first place. That would be even better PR for the dept than what you currently do. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't waste their time or yours on a non-issue.

Just because I dont write someone a citation means I am fishing?

Well, from reading the rest of your post below, I'd say yeah, that's pretty much what it means. Here let me highlight the important part.

License Plate lights, speeding, tail lights out, etc, it is my job to ask questions and look at the BIGGER PICTURE. Every stop I make I am fishing.

Those are your words ya' know.

Would you rather me let the drunk driver go down the road where they could potentially kill someone or take him off the road when I stop him for a license plate light out and smell the alcohol?

I would be way more comfortable with the drunk driver (who obviously is driving well enough that he have you no other PC to his drunkeness) going on down the road than having cops going on fishing expeditions looking for something to bust someone for something, anything. I do remember we were told on here recently that "title 9 is a big section of IN law". Meaning that there's ALWAYS something to cite you for if they want to & the criminal code isn't any better.

Remember driving is a PRIVELEDGE, not a right.

True, but YOU have to remember that the 4A IS A RIGHT, NOT JUST A PRIVILEDGE! Fishing & trying to manufacture PC where none existed before is against the law! Thats the biggest picture I can see from where I'm standing.