INGO member in handcuffs

[christman]

at the end of the day I have to deal with myself, and care very little for that which is legal, only what is write and what is wrong. For a quick and dirty explanation of that think," no victim, no crime" I fully understand the difference between what is and what should be, and do work to make those line up more closely.

Please...The no victim, no crime theory simply displaces societal morality norms for individual gain. When in fact, there are victims in nearly every circumstance. What makes a civilized society truly civilized? It isn't complete liberty as many civilized countries around the world show daily. It is the ability to be able to live together on a general basis under a certain set of standards accepted by the public.

Curious though, what profession do you have that puts you into direct contact with law enforcement regularly?

 

[ProLibertate]

your military service gives you a level of credibility and respect from me already. I cant see how anyone who has honorably served their country would want anything but the best for it in true constitutional form.

Thanks. And the same goes for you. I hold veterans in high regard as a general rule.

How does one get appointed to the merrit board? im thinking its not just the average joe citizen?

I honestly don't know, but I will find out for you today. I will let you know.

maybe we can get a requirement that ILEA PROPERLY teaches cadets about the legalities and rights of indiana citizens with guns and carry? I think some of the problem is inadequet training.

I agree. There are literally thousands of laws in Indiana alone. Federal and municipalities add even more. Frankly, it's ridiculous.
My IC code book is over 500 pages of 8 point type- and it's the abbreviated version for pocket carry.
There is no way anyone could POSSIBLY know all the laws. Not even a judge or attorney.
ILEA is only one of the academies. IMPD and MCSD, for example, have their own completely separate academies.
Approaching the administrators of these academies with your concerns may or may not create policy change. But it does raise awareness, and it certainly can't hurt.

 

[Jeremiah]

Please...The no victim, no crime theory simply displaces societal morality norms for individual gain. When in fact, there are victims in nearly every circumstance. What makes a civilized society truly civilized? It isn't complete liberty as many civilized countries around the world show daily. It is the ability to be able to live together on a general basis under a certain set of standards accepted by the public.

Curious though, what profession do you have that puts you into direct contact with law enforcement regularly?

I'm an educator, I make it a point to talk to the police on campus, and the various LEO's and retired LEO's that teach CJ and sociology classes.

If society can use the coercion of law to inact restrains in your civil society, I shall remain a rogue.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Thanks. And the same goes for you. I hold veterans in high regard as a general rule.



I honestly don't know, but I will find out for you today. I will let you know.



I agree. There are literally thousands of laws in Indiana alone. Federal and municipalities add even more. Frankly, it's ridiculous.
My IC code book is over 500 pages of 8 point type- and it's the abbreviated version for pocket carry.
There is no way anyone could POSSIBLY know all the laws. Not even a judge or attorney.
ILEA is only one of the academies. IMPD and MCSD, for example, have their own completely separate academies.
Approaching the administrators of these academies with your concerns may or may not create policy change. But it does raise awareness, and it certainly can't hurt.

thank you. I will try to properly go through the right channels to address my concerns with the inadequet training on gun laws in the academys, but I doubt that me as a regular citizen will get any consideration. I dont have a title behind or in front of my name. not that its just police that ignore the people, all govt does it. especialy now that the elections are already over. thanks for looking into that for me. I realy am interested to see how they are chosen. maybe i will aspire to be on the police merit board

 

[Jeremiah]

Thanks. And the same goes for you. I hold veterans in high regard as a general rule.



I honestly don't know, but I will find out for you today. I will let you know.



I agree. There are literally thousands of laws in Indiana alone. Federal and municipalities add even more. Frankly, it's ridiculous.
My IC code book is over 500 pages of 8 point type- and it's the abbreviated version for pocket carry.
There is no way anyone could POSSIBLY know all the laws. Not even a judge or attorney.
ILEA is only one of the academies. IMPD and MCSD, for example, have their own completely separate academies.
Approaching the administrators of these academies with your concerns may or may not create policy change. But it does raise awareness, and it certainly can't hurt.

I'm very glad you are this proactive. and this raises a big point. the amount of laws we have prevent anyone from knowing them, but yet ignorance is no excuse to not follow the law. It is impossible for any citizen to assert with a fair degree of certainty that they haven't commited a crime today, let alone at all.

 

[Que]

For a limited time, mods should give me unlimited rep power, as so many of you are deserving.

I agree! Oh, I mean the Mods have discussed this matter and decided to do so would be extremely disruptive to the sancity and sanity of INGO.

 

[Jeremiah]

thank you. I will try to properly go through the right channels to address my concerns with the inadequet training on gun laws in the academys, but I doubt that me as a regular citizen will get any consideration. I dont have a title behind or in front of my name. not that its just police that ignore the people, all govt does it. especialy now that the elections are already over. thanks for looking into that for me. I realy am interested to see how they are chosen. maybe i will aspire to be on the police merit board

Perhaps its time to form the IN OC society?

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts on positive ways to make changes, rather than the same old us vs. them....

I've already made one in this thread. YOU (as in police officers as a whole) have to be the ones who root out bad cops. Cops like the turkey's that caused this whole incident. Like OC or not, think carrying a long gun downtown is silly or not, they are LEGAL activity, and officers who attack law abiding citizens without legal cause are breaking the law. Don't give us the garbage about officer safety, concerned citizens, or the claim that management called those officers used that turned out to be an outright lie. There is NO legal basis for officers requiring citizens to decock firearms, no legal basis for detaining citizens after an LTCH has been provided, no legal basis for detaining citizens carrying long guns. Period.

Aside from the issues of legality... the officers flat out LIED to create a reason for their attacks on private citizens. They claimed management called, an unfortunate choice on their part since one of the citizens they were violating happened to know the management, and was able to determine that they had not, in fact, made such a call. Not only did the officers deliberately violate civil rights and the law, they chose to manufacture RAS to do so. An officer that will tell such a lie is one that will lie in court, that will falsify PC, that will end up making all of you look bad when he is caught. Failure of fellow officers to aggressively attack and remove fellow officers who engage in such activities causes you to all be painted with the same brush.

If you don't want to slap the cuffs on him, as should be done, you and other good officers should at the very least be officially expressing your concerns through channels provided within the department. Until you are willing to enforce the law against bad cops just like you would me or any other private citizen, you have the kinds of problems that are becoming increasingly obvious in IMPD, and you will inevitably end up being lumped in with creatures like that.

 

[E5RANGER375]

^^^ Joe said it perfectly. cops CAN complain against other cops. it might take balls, but I thought you all have those already.

 

[ProLibertate]

I've already made one in this thread. YOU (as in police officers as a whole) have to be the ones who root out bad cops................If you don't want to slap the cuffs on him, as should be done, you and other good officers should at the very least be officially expressing your concerns through channels provided within the department. Until you are willing to enforce the law against bad cops just like you would me or any other private citizen, you have the kinds of problems that are becoming increasingly obvious in IMPD, and you will inevitably end up being lumped in with creatures like that.

I am not a member of IMPD.
Even if I were, one cannot make a complaint based on hearsay... It simply won't go anywhere.
"Chief, I heard that officer so-and-so violated someone's rights the other day, but I didn't witness it, nor do I know any of the officers involved..."
That won't work. What WILL work is for the members who WERE there that day to go file the complaint. They have talked about it on this site. I have even spoken to one of the members that were present on the phone. Until it is OFFICIAL, the whole incident might as well not have happened.
There are 11,175 INGO members. There are over 34,000 hits on this thread... A lot more people have seen this than there are INGO members. No official complaint has been filed. 880-something comments, yet nobody has actually done anything but talk....

 

[ProLibertate]

E5RANGER375, I pm'd you with some info about the Merit Board.

 

[hornadylnl]

What amazes me is how some here are so vehemently against how the OC'ers were treated at this event but don't bat an eye or defend using bs probable cause to pull people over for fishing expeditions. If you've got a burnt out license plate light, why you could be drunk, a dope dealer, an axe murderer, a serial killer, etc. When the inevitable 21 questions arise, (Can I search your car, have you been drinking, where are you coming from, where are you going, did you just kill someone, etc.) those are all reasonable because a burnt out bulb is probable cause. I mean, just look at all the bad guys we get off the street this way. We all want LEO's to get the bad guys off the streets, right? Who cares if we bastardize the 4th amendment to get it done?

By the way, I support the right to drive around with a burnt out tail light while receiving NOTHING more than a ticket for that offense and being sent on your merry way. I support the right to OC a ma deuce down the sidewalk if you've got the muscles to do it. Just point out some of the irony I'm seeing here.

 

[Jeremiah]

By the way, I support the right to drive around with a burnt out tail light while receiving NOTHING more than a ticket for that offense and being sent on your merry way. I support the right to OC a ma deuce down the sidewalk if you've got the muscles to do it. Just point out some of the irony I'm seeing here.

I support the right to drive around without a liscense and not risk tickets and fines for traffic violations.



I's still interested to what IM andATFC are planning to do as a retaliation, I hope they file complaints, it sounds as if IM has contacted legal counsel. I'm waiting to see how it plays out.

 

[public servant]

I will try not to hurt anymore cops feelings here so it doesnt get closed like all the other cop fact threads.

Your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. It is your delivery of said opinion that needs work....

I for one am crushed. I won't be able to sleep for days after this. I demand that he be banned immediately.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

When the inevitable 21 questions arise

horn, boy, this moving thing you're doing has you all wound up.

Relax, you don't have to talk to them. What are the magic words?

Right, "am I free to go". Don't answer his questions and become a "am I free to go" parrot.

 

[Eddie]

^^^ Joe said it perfectly. cops CAN complain against other cops. it might take balls, but I thought you all have those already.

Not to thread jack but I filed a complaint on myself once. I even threatened to appeal it to the board of public safety when they wouldn't punish me. How hardcore is that?

 

[Jeremiah]

Not to thread jack but I filed a complaint on myself once. I even threatened to appeal it to the board of public safety when they wouldn't punish me. How hardcore is that?

can't give rep or I would


I thought about writing a letter to Bisard from indy for his drinking and driving issue last august. Its very honorable to request equal treatment for an infraction, even more so when people want to forget the incident, or you are in a position of public interest.

 

[hornadylnl]

horn, boy, this moving thing you're doing has you all wound up.

Relax, you don't have to talk to them. What are the magic words?

Right, "am I free to go". Don't answer his questions and become a "am I free to go" parrot.

I'm not wound up here. Just pointing at hypocrisy is all. Some think showing ltch should cause an immediate end to this stop yet fishing expeditions are great because they get bad guys off the street. If showing ltch should stop the detention, a person should be given a ticket for the light bulb and sent on his merry way after producing his drivers license.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I'm not wound up here. Just pointing at hypocrisy is all. Some think showing ltch should cause an immediate end to this stop yet fishing expeditions are great because they get bad guys off the street. If showing ltch should stop the detention, a person should be given a ticket for the light bulb and sent on his merry way after producing his drivers license.

I completely agree with you, give me my ticket and let me be on my way

 

[finity]

I have Joe on ignore

Childish...

Another thing I want to add, only one or two posts, in this entire thread, has really hit upon the issue: There is a law on the books that makes OCing a criminal act. Yes there are exceptions (license, certain class of people). That being said, all this anger is directed at LEOs, whose job it is to investigate possible violations of criminal law. The LEOs are doing just that. We have some here who say they can't, and they are wrong, for now. We have others here saying LEOs should investigate, but only do so in a certain way. Obviously the anger here should be directed not at LEOs, but at your elected representatives of the Indiana House, Senate, and Governor's Office. Those are the people who could change the law. It would be easier and less confusing to change the law that have to sit here and wait for who knows how long for various courts to rule on various matters.

I realize I'm late to the party but the anger directed at LEO's isn't just their investigating possible violations of law. It's the way they perform those investigations & the respect that they those they are investigating.

They lied. They issued unsafe & illegal commands. When those commands weren't followed they got indignant that someone DARED to challenge their authority & put them in cuffs. After the LTCH's were provided they still continued to hold them FOR NO REASON.

Yes there are things the legislature can do to help alleviate the situation but don't try to act as though the cops on the scene were simply doing what they were "supposed" to do & are hence blameless.

Are you really going to sit here & try to get us to believe that a, mostly, well-educated police force can't seem to understand that the reason so many (a majority?) of the population are at a minimum leery of the police & many times don't trust them AT ALL not to try to screw them over is because of THEIR OWN ACTIONS not the laws they are hired to enforce?

No one thinks it's "Cool." Even if so, it's not "loony." This is typical rhetoric lefties use to try to make freedom-loving Americans look crazy.

You know, I understand your point but it's not just the "lefties" who try to use those tactics to cow the people who don't agree with them. The "righties" do the same thing. Remember the "your either with us or your with the terrorists" on the issue of the Iraq war? The right consistently questions your patriotism & morality for not fully agreeing with them. It's happened several times right here in this thread.

100% correct! Emphasis added.
Carry a long gun around the city you most certainly deserve to be detained and investigated. OC a handgun and you very well may need to show your permit. Nothing wrong with the Handgun OC or being asked to show a permit. Carry of a rifle is not exercising common sense and deserves all the attention it will get. In the end, your right will be removed. I'd get on that one.

"Common Sense is VERY uncommon."

The Constitution doesn't require that you use "common sense" (what ever that legally means) in the exercise of your rights, just that you don't infringe on the rights of others while you do.

It's nice to know that you're so readily willing to give up other peoples rights so easily. I'm sure we all appreciate it.

You don't think it will happen, but look at Westboro Baptist Church. How many folks on here complain about their LEGAL activities? They are just exercising their 1st Amendment RIGHTS. Now, lots of states are trying to pass laws banning their practice of protesting funerals because the majority don't like what they do.

First off, I agree that WBC are a bunch of loonies. I completely disagree with them. I also agree that they have every right to hold any opinion they want & have the right to speak those views. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I am trying to infringe their 1A rights. As a private citizen I couldn't do that even if that was my intent. THE STATE & IT'S AGENTS are the only ones who can infringe on a right. Kind of like the times (like the current situation) when the cops exceed their authority & move from investigation to harrassment. Harrassment of someone who is legally exercising their rights by an AGENT of the government IS AN INFRINGEMENT. You can pretty it up & try to justify it all you want but it is still an infringement. The cops can have their own personal opinion on OC all they want but they can't use that opinion to influence their enforcement of laws (or non-laws, as the case may be).

If the states try to pass laws banning protests at funerals I can see it going to court to determine if it is an infringement on the protesters rights. I also don't know that I would have a problem with a law that prevents protests at funerals. Just because the protestors have a 1A right to doesn't mean that they have the right to have a captive audience such as when you have a group of people trying to bury a loved one who are in no real position to be "free" to leave.

That differs with carrying a long gun on a public street because if someone doesn't like it they don't have to stay, just as someone doesn't have to stick around a public place & listen to a political or religious speech if they don't want to.

Westboro Baptist Church members exercise their 1st amendment right to educate on what they believe...not everyone believes as they do, but they use a protected constitutional right to do so.

OC'ers exercise their 1st and 2nd amendment rights to educate on not only what they believe, but what is hard cold factual truths that cannot be denied (at least shouldn't be). What we are educating about is something that is well documented and protected, whether you choose to believe or not. There is proof via US Constitution and BOR. We are educating about rights, not beliefs.

And the difference is moot. Whether you are trying to educate about beliefs or facts makes no difference. You are still protected by the 1A from government infringement. One is no better than the other & somehow "more protected".

I merely suggested redirecting the anger to proper channels where progressive action might be taken. What you do with it is up to you.

Oh, now you've done it...

You've gone & used the word "progressive" in a positive way. You will now forever be labeled a communist sympathizer & your patriotism & intelliegence will be challenged at every turn.