INGO member in handcuffs

[E5RANGER375]

IMHO it's time we let this thread die. Most of the fellas over at Officer.com generally support their comrades, Most of INGO thinks we are wronged patriots, It is what it is and THAT'S not going to change. I was there and I think we should let it go. I'm going to.

surrender is NEVER an option for me sorry. thats what your calling for. you might have been there but this is bigger than just you and not just yours to squash. If they want us vs. them then thats what they will get.

If some guy rapes my wife, im not gonna take a day and use it to calm down and forgive. Im gonna use that day to methodically think about how im gonna hunt down and iliminate the scum bag who did it. Backing down is not in my genes, since i come from a long line of American Patriots. This is not a fight we can afford to lose. the consequences of such would be far more devastating than a few hurt feelings and squashed ego's.
This cant be brushed under the rug. We do that far too many times in this country. Stand up and be proud of what your standing for, for the cause is just and Honorable.

 

[thompal]

Guys, I want to reflect back to one of the purposes of this event, which was supposed to be an education of the masses. Now, in this effort, please tell me how anyone was educated? The only thing I see that happened was a law-abiding citizen handcuffed and illegally detained, while another had his firearm illegally confiscated. Although those are the facts, all those secretaries, office workers, and even the couple at the cookie store probably saw was a bunch of 'crazy' people carrying guns and IMPD doing a great job of protecting their safety. I'm glad the media was not there. I could only imagine what they would report.

I understand the to-each-his-own factor, and that protest takes on many different faces. I just don't see the lesson conveyed in this, but I'm open to learn if I'm missing something.

I understand what you're saying, but I would point out that not every "protest" against infringement on rights has been popular with the general, uneducated public. I suspect that many blacks, for instance, felt it was better to not make waves than to join in the civil rights protests in the 60's. I don't see this as being much different. Not everyone (the "sheeple") is going to like people walking around openly armed, but that's just too bad. Not everyone enjoys certain people being able to make various political statements, but people throughout our history have gone to jail or been harassed to make that point as well.

 

[thompal]

Is the building by the high school still considered part of school property on Hornet Ave.?

Yep - it houses K-1st. Unfortunately, they have a lot of meetings there, since it is also a "community center," so I can't carry when I attend. Fortunately, it is only across the street so I don't have to be 'out and about' much when I attend.

 

[thompal]

Lurkers, don't listen to Joe. Indiana law is clear, carrying a handgun, concealed or open, is a crime. Connected to that law is another law, that says if a person has a license, or fits into a list of positions, one is not in violation of carrying a handgun.

Since the law says no handguns on your person, then if an officer sees a person with a handgun, there is absolutely reasonable suspicion to stop that person and investigate a possible criminal violation.

Perhaps, but this same line of thinking makes no sense, when Indiana law also requires you to have a license to drive, yet the mere act of driving isn't considered a "reasonable suspicion" that would allow LEO to pull over every person they see driving.

 

[SavageEagle]

Hmmmm....I think it is "loony" to think it is cool to walk around in public with long guns and then question ANY response. No one rights were violated. Doubt me then hire counsel and sue. Then when it is all said and done come back and tell us how it worked out.

We are on the same side. But I can tell you this,we are sure as heck different. If you see me anywhere off duty you will never know I am armed. If I need to take a long gun some place in public you can bet it will be cased or covered. I don't like attention. I don't need attention. And for about the fourth time if this type of stuff becomes common place I am afraid you will see new legislation making it illegal. Then people will be crying about that. As a gun owner in this state we all have it pretty darn good. Lets not ruin it with dramatics.

I am done with this thread. IMO it has gone on way to long as it is for what it is.

You have repeatedly avoided SE's question. He has told you that they were not questioning "any response". The complaint (as it seems to be in not only this but so many other threads) is that once the LEO's had an opportunity to confirm that no crimes were being committed why did the stop continue? Why handcuff someone who is obeying the law? What reason did they have to "verify ownership" of the MP5? Why lie about management at City Market wanting them to leave? This is the heart of the problem. Law abiding citizens can own and carry firearms and they should not be harassed for doing so. Anything that went on after it was verified that these men were carrying legally was just harassment, plain and simple.

He's not going to answer because he JUST DOESN'T CARE. He's either A) afraid of what government will do to our rights, or B) he really isn't all for gun rights except for him and his police friends. His attitude shows this. His twisting of the subject shows this. He and his anti-carry friends are showing this.

It's people like him that MAKE people fear to exercise their rights. Oh don't do that cause you'll scare people and and they might make it illegal!!!! BS. That's what they said about the TEA Parties too. Give me a break. It'll be guys like this guy that sign up for the Communist Motherland Protection Squad and be glad to see the Constitution burn. Ok, maybe that's harsh, but that's the attitude he's throwing out there. Fear. Maybe he needs a new line of work.

 

[bigus_D]

To be fair. It IS possible that events like this could lead to new laws prohibiting carry that is lawful now.

I just don't think that will happen and agree more with the 'a right unexcersized is a right lost' position.

 

[Prometheus]

To be fair. It IS possible that events like this could lead to new laws prohibiting carry that is lawful now.

I just don't think that will happen and agree more with the 'a right unexcersized is a right lost' position.

I don't think that is being fair. If it wasn't for the Open Carriers in Ohio, they would have never (or at least definately not so soon) gotten their CCW laws enacted. I'd also like to note that OC is still legal.

So not only were the bed wetters wrong that OC would lead to more gun control, they were 180 degrees off because it led to LESS gun control.

We need to move handguns into the same category as rifles and shotguns. That category should be "Constitutional Carry". We need the legislators to follow the fracking Constitutions (especially the State) and repeal the laws requiring us to pay a fine in order to defend ourselves.

FYI, In Wisconsin, the OC movement is pushing the charge for CC. It's bringing stupid gun laws to light and normalizing firearms in public.

Guns are NORMAL. If people don't see them, everyday, causing no harm, their only experience with guns will be via the dinosaur media and that wil be bad.

To the bed wetters who bleat about more gun control? I'll paraphrase Patrick Henry: "You sir, may go have your way with yourself."

 

[bigus_D]

I don't think that is being fair.

I think it is unwise to suggest that there is no possibility that actions like these could result in more gun laws. I believe that is a clear possibility. We can argue of the likehood, but it sounds like we both don't think it is very likely. Anyhow, it is best, IMHO, to analyze all possible outcomes of any action before actually taking action.

I agree with the remainder of your post. The most likely outcome is education of the populace/law enforcement of the existing laws with the possiblity of improving the current situation. We've seen great strides in many neighboring states with more to come hopefully.

 

[thompal]

#2C: Does the officer have a right to ask for photo ID to compare to the pink piece of paper to verify the info on the paper, which lacks a photo?

Which brings up the whole "failure to identify" issue. Can an officer demand a drivers license from someone who is not driving if that person identifies himself to the officer verbally, and in the case of an LTCH, with government-issued "papers?"

There is, as far as I know, no law which requires a non-driver to possess state-issued ID, except to vote, etc.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Unless you have committed an infraction or ordnance violation you can legally refuse to identify yourself. Whether this is a prudent course of action is another issue.

 

[mrjarrell]

Ok, maybe that's harsh, but that's the attitude he's throwing out there. Fear. Maybe he needs a new line of work.

Some people, in many professions, who cannot garner respect will almost always settle for fear. They like it when you're afraid of them and will always go for causing it, in almost any circumstance. It's their drug of choice.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Some people, in many professions, who cannot garner respect will almost always settle for fear. They like it when you're afraid of them and will always go for causing it, in almost any circumstance. It's their drug of choice.

We need to be their antidote.

 

[Jack Ryan]

could someone post a link to the conversation on OFFICER.COM about this event ?
I cant seem to find it thru all the civilian bashing

I just don't see all that much civilian bashing there, not any more civilian bashing there than there is cop bashing here. Just like any other group of human beings, when you divide off enough cops to get a representative sample they will shake out about like any other group. 2/3's to 3/4's normal regular guys with a lot of common sense, a little biased toward what they are most familiar with and a fair to middling over view of the rest of the world.

Out side of that majority you'll have the 10% or so of wack job radical idiots. 10% on each extreme of every issue who make the most noise and have the middle majority rolling their eyes.

A lot like INGO.

 

[SavageEagle]

We need to be their antidote.

Unfortunately, the only fix now is a lawyer. It's not cheap, but it's the only cure. The QUICK fix is filing a complaint.

Look, come, check me out. As per the law, ask for my ID and LTCH. After that, if you wanna chat, if I got time, sure. I don't mind chatting with officers. I have much respect for those that respect others and myself. But I won't respect those that don't respect me.

When I was put face down in the mud and rain at my storage unit I was taken by surprise. However, I was quickly loading my truck with stuff from my unit and probably looked like a robber to anyone looking. I was also openly armed. HOWEVER, when the officer realized I was no threat and legal, we sat there and joked around easing the atmosphere. I wasn't too terribly upset besides the gun being trained on me the whole time. I gave them respect because they were respectful and had legit reason to believe a crime was being committed.

This was not the case here. No one was believed to be breaking the law. People had fliers to hand out. If the person calling the police at the Country Market had taken 5 minutes to watch before calling police they would have realized there was no threat. Then billy badass comes in acting like King Richard with all the power not given to him by anyone. He cuffed someone doing nothing, confiscated property and ordered people to do unsafe actions in a high stress situation. (unloading guns in a very high traffic area).

I'm sorry if j706 or other officers can't realize this was stupid and unConstitutional. I would be more than happy to sit down with you guys and have a CIVIL discussion about all this. With your commanding officer as well if you wish. PM me and we can get together and talk. I'm not opposed to hearing conflicting opinions and discussing them civil like.

 

[machete]

surrender is NEVER an option for me sorry. thats what your calling for. you might have been there but this is bigger than just you and not just yours to squash. If they want us vs. them then thats what they will get.

If some guy rapes my wife, im not gonna take a day and use it to calm down and forgive. Im gonna use that day to methodically think about how im gonna hunt down and iliminate the scum bag who did it. Backing down is not in my genes, since i come from a long line of American Patriots. This is not a fight we can afford to lose. the consequences of such would be far more devastating than a few hurt feelings and squashed ego's.
This cant be brushed under the rug. We do that far too many times in this country. Stand up and be proud of what your standing for, for the cause is just and Honorable.

Great post. What you speak is the cost of freedom. A people don't remain free if they just let things go.

 

[machete]

Some people, in many professions, who cannot garner respect will almost always settle for fear. They like it when you're afraid of them and will always go for causing it, in almost any circumstance. It's their drug of choice.

Man, that is profound. Did you write this because this is good. I always sort of knew this at a gut level but you put it all together.

 

[Indy317]

Many people didn't tolerate Rosa Parks sitting on the front of the bus or MLK talking about equality, civil discourse has a long record of bringing about positive change

Everyone is technically correct when they make comments about rights not exercised are rights lost...to a point though. I don't want to hear anyone in that camp complain if pro-lifers pass out postcards with photos of an aborted fetus to their kids. I don't want to hear them complain when Muslims pass out anti-Christian literature to their kids. What's good for one group has to be good for all. No "Well I wouldn't support that!" or "Well that's different!" Just remember, you reap what you sow. If the thing to do now is shock value education, and OCing is shock value, don't complain when other groups who you disagree put the same tactics into play. Also don't complain when groups you might actually agree with do things that you might think are extreme, but legal. When you go to put your house on the market, don't get upset when your neighbor, next door or down the street, starts flying a flag with a swastika.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

Good luck IndyMonkey.. I wish you well!

 

[SavageEagle]

Everyone is technically correct when they make comments about rights not exercised are rights lost...to a point though. I don't want to hear anyone in that camp complain if pro-lifers pass out postcards with photos of an aborted fetus to their kids. I don't want to hear them complain when Muslims pass out anti-Christian literature to their kids. What's good for one group has to be good for all. No "Well I wouldn't support that!" or "Well that's different!" Just remember, you reap what you sow. If the thing to do now is shock value education, and OCing is shock value, don't complain when other groups who you disagree put the same tactics into play. Also don't complain when groups you might actually agree with do things that you might think are extreme, but legal. When you go to put your house on the market, don't get upset when your neighbor, next door or down the street, starts flying a flag with a swastika.

As long as those people are violated someone's or my rights, more power to them.

 

[SavageEagle]

As long as those people aren't violating someone's or my rights, more power to them.

FTFM since I still can't edit.