IN State Super of Ed

[Mad Macs]

Except that your justification for opposing it is wrong.


When you are in the big boy chair and can make the decisions, great. But you're not. And your candidate is on record as opposing homeschool freedoms.


LOL, so it wasn't what he did, but the fact that he didn't ask your permission for it first?

Do you think Ritz is going to consult homeschoolers across the state when she pushes for standardized testing requirements for us? Or when she requires us to register?


Will you be as irate and profanity-prone when she pulls the same heavy-handed behaviors to push her agenda that Bennett did?

Don't tell me my justification is wrong, that's pretty flippin' arrogant of you. Not really, I don't want to pay for somebody's religious education. I also think EVERYBODY should get to choose, not just certain groups.

Maybe, we shall see what she does. I honestly think she's going to have a lot to work on and not really focus on home schoolers. I read an article today that basically said the Governor's office would fight her on anything she wanted to accomplish.

There are ways to do things. What works better? Should I go to the group that needs to get on track and work WITH them on this? Or should I freeze their salaries, institute tax caps so they can't get any more money to their schools, and threaten them with firing for not adhering to what I want?

You seem to think the ends justify the means. Bennett was an ass, plain and simple. He refused to compromise or even listen to the teachers he so hated.

No idea, we shall have to see.

Yes I will. I think the pendulum cannot swing back the other way just as hard as it swung towards the teachers. You seem to be missing the part where i know that education is broken and needs to be fixed. You are ignoring the fact that I admit that freely. I just don't think we need to change a flat tire with an oil change.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Indiana Constitution
ARTICLE 8.
Education.

Section 1. Knowledge and learning, generally diffused throughout a community, being essential to the preservation of a free government; it shall be the duty of the General Assembly to encourage, by all suitable means, moral, intellectual, scientific, and agricultural improvement; and to provide, by law, for a general and uniform system of Common Schools, wherein tuition shall be without charge, and equally open to all.

Section 2. The Common School fund shall consist of the Congressional Township fund, and the lands belonging thereto;
The Surplus Revenue fund;
The Saline fund and the lands belonging thereto;
The Bank Tax fund, and the fund arising from the one hundred and fourteenth section of the charter of the State Bank of Indiana;
The fund to be derived from the sale of County Seminaries, and the moneys and property heretofore held for such Seminaries; from the fines assessed for breaches of the penal laws of the State; and from all forfeitures which may accrue;
All lands and other estate which shall escheat to the State, for want of heirs or kindred entitled to the inheritance;
All lands that have been, or may hereafter be, granted to the State, where no special purpose is expressed in the grant, and the proceeds of the sales thereof; including the proceeds of the sales of the Swamp Lands, granted to the State of Indiana by the act of Congress of the twenty eighth of September, eighteen hundred and fifty, after deducting the expense of selecting and draining the same;
Taxes on the property of corporations, that may be assessed by the General Assembly for common school purposes.

Section 3. The principal of the Common School fund shall remain a perpetual fund, which may be increased, but shall never be diminished; and the income thereof shall be inviolably appropriated to the support of Common Schools, and to no other purpose whatever.

Section 4. The General Assembly shall invest, in some safe and profitable manner, all such portions of the Common School fund, as have not heretofore been entrusted to the several counties; and shall make provision, by law, for the distribution, among the several counties, of the interest thereof.

Section 5. If any county shall fail to demand its proportion of such interest, for Common School purposes, the same shall be reinvested, for the benefit of such county.

Section 6. The several counties shall be held liable for the preservation of so much of the said fund as may be entrusted to them, and for the payment of the annual interest thereon.

Section 7. All trust funds, held by the State, shall remain inviolate, and be faithfully and exclusively applied to the purposes for which the trust was created.

Section 8. There shall be a State Superintendent of Public Instruction, whose method of selection, tenure, duties and compensation shall be prescribed by law.
(History: As Amended November 7, 1972. The schedule adopted with the 1972 amendment to Article 8, Section 8 was stricken out by the November 6, 1984, amendment)

Lots of talk about funding education. Not a whole lot about accountability, testing, and accreditation.

 

[Coach]

Indiana has Open Enrollment.

Children can go to school pretty much where ever.

Yes they can. They can also homeschool.

Ritz did not say one word about homeschooling in the forum I attended between her and Tony Bennett. I seriously doubt we will see any changes in regard to homeschooling from her.

 

[Coach]

Yes, it does. What authority do you have over me and my children's education?

Why not move to a place with no government or no authority what so ever and provide everything completely for yourself. Why stop simply with education. Opt out of America's repressive tyrannical society completely.

That would be freedom.

 

[Coach]

Qualified for the job?

That's a joke. So you sat for 4 years (maybe more of the same if there's a master's involved) learning methods and rubrics and how to plan lessons. That doesn't make you qualified to teach. That qualifies you for graduation and certification.

I did none of that and I'm infinitely qualified to teach. (Not to be confused with qualified for teaching employment by the state.) And I've met plenty of graduated and certified individuals who were woefully inadequate. My sixth grade teacher comes to mind.

You should be paid for your services, without a doubt. But there's nothing but hubris in an opinion that certification and specialized education are the qualifications for being a teacher.

None of this is to imply that on an individual level there are fabulous teachers. My English Lit and Calc teachers were awesome and I credit them with a lot of positive influence in my life. But they were good in spite of their little piece of paper. Not because of it.

What makes you infinitely qualified to teach?

Are you saying that I am not qualified to teach?

 

[88GT]

Don't tell me my justification is wrong, that's pretty flippin' arrogant of you.

You said charters were privatizing education and that's why you didn't like 'em. Charter schools are NOT private. I've said that about a dozen times in this thread. If you don't like charters because you think they're private, you are WRONG.

Maybe, we shall see what she does. I honestly think she's going to have a lot to work on and not really focus on home schoolers. I read an article today that basically said the Governor's office would fight her on anything she wanted to accomplish.

Is that why she said she wanted to create a "policy" for homeschoolers? Because there isn't one and we suddenly need one.

There are ways to do things. What works better? Should I go to the group that needs to get on track and work WITH them on this? Or should I freeze their salaries, institute tax caps so they can't get any more money to their schools, and threaten them with firing for not adhering to what I want?

Cry me a farking river. Nobody comes to us when they start suggesting a bunch of regulation for homeschoolers.

You seem to think the ends justify the means.

I'm not opposed to such a position. But I'm not sure what you mean in this case. Is it that because I agree with the means of achieving the end you think I'm careless of all means.

Bennett was an ass, plain and simple. He refused to compromise or even listen to the teachers he so hated.

Ritz is a *****. Are we reduced to supporting our positions by calling the opponent names? When I need someone for character assassination, I'll be sure to give you a call.

Yes I will. I think the pendulum cannot swing back the other way just as hard as it swung towards the teachers. You seem to be missing the part where i know that education is broken and needs to be fixed. You are ignoring the fact that I admit that freely. I just don't think we need to change a flat tire with an oil change.

Somehow I doubt that. But just to be sure, I'll be hitting you up for support when we have to bust our asses. I can count on you to make phone calls opposing regulation of homeschoolers?

I didn't miss it. I think it's irrelevant. I assumed you did. Anyone who doesn't is either daft or making money from the current system. What I did get is a bunch of *****ing about Bennett's attitude, claims that his fixes weren't fixes, and not a whole lot of anything else. Okay. You're entitled to disagree with the way he did it. And you don't seem to like my suggestions. You got a better idea?

 

[88GT]

Why not move to a place with no government or no authority what so ever and provide everything completely for yourself. Why stop simply with education. Opt out of America's repressive tyrannical society completely.

That would be freedom.

Straw man. I don't oppose government. I oppose government intrusion where it doesn't belong.

What makes you infinitely qualified to teach?

What makes you infinitely qualified to teach? I've established that college and certification aren't it. So what do you think?

Are you saying that I am not qualified to teach?

Did I say that? If I thought that, I would have said it. I don't know you. I don't know how you teach or why you teach. Why would I say you weren't qualified? Seems to me you're the one making implications and innuendos about who is and isn't qualified.

 

[88GT]

Yes they can. They can also homeschool.

Ritz did not say one word about homeschooling in the forum I attended between her and Tony Bennett. I seriously doubt we will see any changes in regard to homeschooling from her.

You were at the wrong forum then.

On September 25, 2012, the issue of homeschooling came up in a
question-and-answer forum put on by the Indiana School Board
Association and the Indiana Associate of Public School
Superintendents. At this event, Ms. Glenda Ritz, a candidate for the
Indiana Superintendent of Public Instruction, was asked, "Do you think
policy needs to be changed on homeschooling?" We believe her answer is
very informative to all those interested in continued homeschool
freedom in Indiana.

Ms. Ritz's initial response was, "We don't have any policy on
homeschooling in Indiana." While the applause that followed this
statement may be concerning to us as homeschoolers, you have to
remember the audience of the ISBA/IAPSS forum. Most of those in
attendance at this event were public school corporation employees or
school corporation board members.

After the applause died down, Ms. Ritz went on to state "We need some
policy on homeschooling. It's actually being abused in many cases. I
have heard of students being withdrawn by their parents to take care
of an aging grandparent and getting absolutely no schooling at home.
There are no regulations at all regarding it. So, yeah, we need some
policy on homeschooling."

 

[Coach]

You were at the wrong forum then.

It did not come up at the one in October at Wabash College. Not in a question asked or in her prepared statements.

 

[Coach]

Straw man. I don't oppose government. I oppose government intrusion where it doesn't belong.


What makes you infinitely qualified to teach? I've established that college and certification aren't it. So what do you think?


Did I say that? If I thought that, I would have said it. I don't know you. I don't know how you teach or why you teach. Why would I say you weren't qualified? Seems to me you're the one making implications and innuendos about who is and isn't qualified.

You said you were infinitely qualified to teach. Back it up with some facts what are your qualifications.

 

[Coach]

Straw man. I don't oppose government. I oppose government intrusion where it doesn't belong.


What makes you infinitely qualified to teach? I've established that college and certification aren't it. So what do you think?


Did I say that? If I thought that, I would have said it. I don't know you. I don't know how you teach or why you teach. Why would I say you weren't qualified? Seems to me you're the one making implications and innuendos about who is and isn't qualified.

Government in its rightful place according to you. Strawman all you want. Your opinion is what counts. If you happen to agree everything is fine but the minute you don't agree then it is unjust. Majority rules.

 

[88GT]

You said you were infinitely qualified to teach. Back it up with some facts what are your qualifications.

Teaching isn't a skill. It's a desire. Anybody can teach. They just have to want to. I love my kids and know what's best for them. That's all the qualification that is necessary.

You didn't think it was four years of college and a license from the state, did you?

 

[88GT]

Government in its rightful place according to you. Strawman all you want. Your opinion is what counts. If you happen to agree everything is fine but the minute you don't agree then it is unjust. Majority rules.

This post makes no sense. And I'm not the one making straw man arguments.

Yes, we're talking about my opinion. When was that ever in doubt?

Agree with what? Don't agree with what? I'm not following. I've been pretty damn consistent with what I consider to be right and wrong, just and unjust. And all of them have been measured against a single standard, which doesn't happen to be my personal opinion.

 

[BravoMike]

Yes, no, and yes.

Charter schools are public schools. Public schools/educators should have specific standards so that the people know what they're paying for. We don't have the option of choosing not to pay for these services. You don't expect to pay for a vehicle repair that didn't fix the problem. We shouldn't expect to have to pay for education that doesn't take place (or for proselytizing or preaching from the ones were paying).

Private schools can have whatever standards they want. If people don't like them, they won't pay to send their kids there. They'll have to change the standards or close their doors.

Indiana standards apply only to public schools Private schools are subject only to compulsory attendance requirements and instruction in English.

This is probably where we depart from agreement. I think that at this level we should hold the same standards across the board. Parents have the choice to send their kids to whatever school they want. Also, is there not a law in Indiana where children have to go to school until a certain age? This means that ultimately the parents have no choice to not pay for schooling. So then why have different standards?

These "standards" through NCLBH that public schools and their teachers are being held to are not helping improving education. In fact, it is taking away from it. I would agree that bad teachers need to go and that there should be job performance reviews. I just don't think that the NCLB system that we have set up here in Indiana is an effective way of doing that.

I appreciate your capitalistic views, but I am far from an anarcho capitalist. Ideally yes, it would work out so that the schools that parents had to pay enrollment to would be a better school because the school would have to be better than the public ones. Unfortianatelly, this is not always the case and am of the opinion that they should be held to the same standards.

 

[BravoMike]

Teaching isn't a skill. It's a desire. Anybody can teach. They just have to want to. I love my kids and know what's best for them. That's all the qualification that is necessary.

You didn't think it was four years of college and a license from the state, did you?

I agree that teaching is a desire, just like learning. But there are skills to help be a more effective teacher.

 

[Coach]

Teaching isn't a skill. It's a desire. Anybody can teach. They just have to want to. I love my kids and know what's best for them. That's all the qualification that is necessary.

You didn't think it was four years of college and a license from the state, did you?

Now I understand. If I have the desire I am qualified to teach. You have stated that there are bad teachers in your past. They could not have gotten there without desire. But they were terrible. How is that possible?

I have know many people who were great at doing any number of things and could not teach it worth a crap, and not because they did not desire to teach. It was because they did not know how to teach it, and because they did not have the ability to teach it.

To be a good teacher your first have to have knowledge and skills worth teaching. Then the ability to teach the skill to others has to be present. It takes more than desire.

 

[88GT]

This is probably where we depart from agreement. I think that at this level we should hold the same standards across the board. Parents have the choice to send their kids to whatever school they want. Also, is there not a law in Indiana where children have to go to school until a certain age? This means that ultimately the parents have no choice to not pay for schooling. So then why have different standards?

These "standards" through NCLBH that public schools and their teachers are being held to are not helping improving education. In fact, it is taking away from it. I would agree that bad teachers need to go and that there should be job performance reviews. I just don't think that the NCLB system that we have set up here in Indiana is an effective way of doing that.

I appreciate your capitalistic views, but I am far from an anarcho capitalist. Ideally yes, it would work out so that the schools that parents had to pay enrollment to would be a better school because the school would have to be better than the public ones. Unfortianatelly, this is not always the case and am of the opinion that they should be held to the same standards.

Okay, so you readily admit that you don't have any authority to control how I raise my kids, but you think that you should be able to do that through the government?

I don't understand that.

I'm not an anarcho capitalist by any stretch either. But we functioned fine in this country without government control and standards (and quite frankly, had better results). Unless you can give me a reason why I should be held to any standard at all, I'm gonna have to call BS. It's not about a standard. It's about control.

To the bolded: I didn't say they had to be better than public schools. I said they had to meet the standards of the parents or they would have no students. If it's crap education and the parents are still fine with it, why do you care (you general and specific)? But it comes back to the fundamental question of why you think government has a say in what constitutes good education. Considering they can't get it right themselves, I have a hard time understanding the logic that says I should be folded under their umbrella.

And, that compulsory attendance law needs to go too.

I agree that teaching is a desire, just like learning. But there are skills to help be a more effective teacher.

More effective than what? What skills? And where does one acquire those skills?

 

[Coach]

This post makes no sense. And I'm not the one making straw man arguments.

Yes, we're talking about my opinion. When was that ever in doubt?

Agree with what? Don't agree with what? I'm not following. I've been pretty damn consistent with what I consider to be right and wrong, just and unjust. And all of them have been measured against a single standard, which doesn't happen to be my personal opinion.

You want everything your way. You want to live in the society and enjoy all the fruits of society, but you don't want the rules that go along with it. Once the rules like getting an education are forced then you want to talk about government not belonging in education. The majority of people put it there. You are not against government when it agrees with your vision or version of proper.

 

[88GT]

Now I understand. If I have the desire I am qualified to teach. You have stated that there are bad teachers in your past. They could not have gotten there without desire. But they were terrible. How is that possible?

I have know many people who were great at doing any number of things and could not teach it worth a crap, and not because they did not desire to teach. It was because they did not know how to teach it, and because they did not have the ability to teach it.

To be a good teacher your first have to have knowledge and skills worth teaching. Then the ability to teach the skill to others has to be present. It takes more than desire.

Desire to be employed is not the same as desire to teach. Not stand up in front of classroom teach. Teach. Instill the desire to learn. Create the atmosphere of discovery.

What skills? What do you have that I don't have? What did you get from your experience that I don't/can't have?

Desire will spur the other things. But without the desire, there is nothing.

 

[BravoMike]

Okay, so you readily admit that you don't have any authority to control how I raise my kids, but you think that you should be able to do that through the government?

I don't understand that.

I'm not an anarcho capitalist by any stretch either. But we functioned fine in this country without government control and standards (and quite frankly, had better results). Unless you can give me a reason why I should be held to any standard at all, I'm gonna have to call BS. It's not about a standard. It's about control.

To the bolded: I didn't say they had to be better than public schools. I said they had to meet the standards of the parents or they would have no students. If it's crap education and the parents are still fine with it, why do you care (you general and specific)? But it comes back to the fundamental question of why you think government has a say in what constitutes good education. Considering they can't get it right themselves, I have a hard time understanding the logic that says I should be folded under their umbrella.

And, that compulsory attendance law needs to go too.



More effective than what? What skills? And where does one acquire those skills?

So no standards for anyone but those who work for the evil gov't. Check.

One of the many places to get those skills would be college.