IN State Super of Ed

[jsharmon7]

I think the difference is not so much 'where' the line is drawn, but who should draw it.

If the government is doing the drawing, then I think we would all be better off with no lines at all.

Ok, who do you suppose draws it? If you see the neighbor's kid the next morning and think he's gone too far, what happens? He thinks it's okay, you don't, so whoever is stronger wins? Do you find enough neighbors who agree with you to go take the guy down? I'm simply in favor of bright lines being drawn and consequences codified based on popular opinion. Whether it's the evil government you so despise, or simply a community decision, which is in itself a pseudo-government. Children need to be reasonably educated and protected either way. Public schools are an excellent tool to at least attempt this parity. I think vouchers for private schools would be slightly better, but it's still a function of the government taking money from people to give to other people in order to educate their children. Too many people lack the ability or interest to properly educate children and public schools fill that void. Congratulations to you and 88GT and anyone else who takes that effort on their children's behalf. I truly wish that all parents were like that.

 

[BravoMike]

If airlines are unsafe, choose one that isn't. Consumer reports can help with these sort of decisions.

Same goes for schools.

I suppose the difference is that I prefer liberty over safety, while you appear to prefer the opposite.

You are right. I support an opressive regime.

Sounds like you want to replace Government with Consumer Reports. How would this be different?

 

[cordex]

I understand the libertarian "screw 'em" theory, but do we punish kids whose parents don't care?

As we've heard multiple times in this thread by teachers and their advocates, if parents don't care and do their part at home there is little that the teachers can do.

Also, for steveh, do you think homeschooled children should be tested in any way? If I choose to homeschool my kids should it be okay to intellectually cripple them if I don't feel like teaching them or simply don't know what I'm doing?

I'm not steveh, but I do have some thoughts.
Should it be okay for a parent to choose to nutritionally cripple their kids by feeding them foods that will make them obese?
Should it be okay for a parent to professionally cripple their kids by failing instill the value of hard work?
Should it be okay for a parent to behaviorally cripple their kids by telling them everything they do is great, just to maintain their self esteem?
Should it be okay for a parent to financially cripple their kids by failing to teach them the value of money?
Should it be okay for a parent to teach their children to be afraid of everything, to have no fear of anything, to be unable to get along with others, to be a pushover, to be racist, to hate cops, to have poor self esteem or body image, to not value life, etc, etc, etc?

Just because something is not okay doesn't mean "There oughta be a law!" or that the government should handle it.

There are countless ways a parent can legally screw up their kids - some that are even more permanent than by harming their education. The only way that you can prevent that is to have the state be responsible for raising children instead of parents. Our country may be moving toward that goal, but it is not something I support.

 

[BravoMike]

Ok everyone I have an idea. Lets get rid of the Government, entirely. After all what does it provide?

EDIT: Obviously written to be completely sarcastic. I know that with many it is the belief that any form of government is evil, even at the smallest level. The smallest form of government will grow into a large oppressive regime. So why have any form of government at all? Where does it end? That seems to be the basis of this discussion. Many agree that we should have some sort of oversight, but it shouldn't come from the government, instead we should call it something else. After all, that something else will never grown into something oppressive. Once this pesky and oppressive government is out of the way, maybe we can all live in euphoria.

 

[glockednlocked]

Throws up my hands Aww Mike we can agree to disagree. I dont mind working late so I can send my kids to private school even though my taxes pay for public schools my kids will never go too. I understand some teachers work very hard. Hey its 3:40 your wife should be home by now, Hope she isnt too tired from "working" since 8Am to cook you a good dinner. I will get home about 8pm tonight if I am lucky, but dont sweat it I know you appreciate my contribution you earned it lol.

 

[BravoMike]

Throws up my hands Aww Mike we can agree to disagree. I dont mind working late so I can send my kids to private school even though my taxes pay for public schools my kids will never go too. I understand some teachers work very hard. Hey its 3:40 your wife should be home by now, Hope she isnt too tired from "working" since 8Am to cook you a good dinner. I will get home about 8pm tonight if I am lucky, but dont sweat it I know you appreciate my contribution you earned it lol.

Yes the kids are gone, but she is still at work, working. Getting rich according to you.

Also, don't you get a state tax credit for sending your kids to private school.

 

[steveh_131]

You are right. I support an opressive regime.

I never said that. I said you are exchanging liberty for the perception of safety.

Sounds like you want to replace Government with Consumer Reports. How would this be different?

What? No...just no.

Ok everyone I have an idea. Lets get rid of the Government, entirely. After all what does it provide?

It ought to provide protection of property rights, prevent the initiation of force between individuals, and I could be talked into the development of roads and other public infrastructure.

 

[BravoMike]

I never said that. I said you are exchanging liberty for the perception of safety.



What? No...just no.



It ought to provide protection of property rights, prevent the initiation of force between individuals, and I could be talked into the development of roads and other public infrastructure.

But can't all that be done with companies? Why have a government? Shouldn't the free market do all of that?

 

[steveh_131]

Ok, who do you suppose draws it? If you see the neighbor's kid the next morning and think he's gone too far, what happens? He thinks it's okay, you don't, so whoever is stronger wins? Do you find enough neighbors who agree with you to go take the guy down? I'm simply in favor of bright lines being drawn and consequences codified based on popular opinion. Whether it's the evil government you so despise, or simply a community decision, which is in itself a pseudo-government. Children need to be reasonably educated and protected either way. Public schools are an excellent tool to at least attempt this parity. I think vouchers for private schools would be slightly better, but it's still a function of the government taking money from people to give to other people in order to educate their children. Too many people lack the ability or interest to properly educate children and public schools fill that void. Congratulations to you and 88GT and anyone else who takes that effort on their children's behalf. I truly wish that all parents were like that.

I don't really disagree with you at all from a moral standpoint. But let's look at it from a practical standpoint.

Society decided that all children should have an education, and that the government should provide it by taking money from the populace by force. What did we end up with? Public schools offering a meager excuse for education, costing 3 or 4 times what it ought to, and destroying the free market for people who might want to provide their kids with a real education.

Society decided that children should be protected from their parents, and that the government should enforce it. What did we end up with? Parents who are afraid to spank their children out of fear of losing them. Home invaded by the police because a parent refused to force feed their child psychotropic drugs.

Society decided that all people should eat, and that the government should provide food by taking money from the populace by force. What did we end up with? Food stamps sold for drugs, jobless leeches feeding off of us indefinintely, etc.

Society agrees with you. We tried your method, and it has failed. Maybe we should try something else? That's really all I'm saying.

 

[steveh_131]

But can't all that be done with companies? Why have a government? Shouldn't the free market do all of that?

I've explained the way a free market can and would provide all of the educational resource we need for our children.

If you can propose a good way to protect property rights and individual liberties via the free market, then I'd probably get behind it.

 

[glockednlocked]

Union work? or teaching work? yep Tony Bennet gave me $1,000 tax credit to make me spend many times that to have a service my tax $ allready payed for provided to me. Dang it I did go to public school if that math makes any impact on why I wont send my kids to public schools. Its ok the union schill won your wife can come home now, no need to hide in the teachers lounge drinking coffee till the administators leave.

 

[BravoMike]

Union work? or teaching work? yep Tony Bennet gave me $1,000 tax credit to make me spend many times that to have a service my tax $ allready payed for provided to me. Dang it I did go to public school if that math makes any impact on why I wont send my kids to public schools. Its ok the union schill won your wife can come home now, no need to hide in the teachers lounge drinking coffee till the administators leave.

Why are you deciding to personally attack my wife? She isn't in the damn union.

 

[BravoMike]

I've explained the way a free market can and would provide all of the educational resource we need for our children.

If you can propose a good way to protect property rights and individual liberties via the free market, then I'd probably get behind it.

Ok that is part of my point. Anything can be done by way of free market, but I don't think that everything should be. Including education. I guess that's just my .

 

[steveh_131]

Union work? or teaching work? yep Tony Bennet gave me $1,000 tax credit to make me spend many times that to have a service my tax $ allready payed for provided to me. Dang it I did go to public school if that math makes any impact on why I wont send my kids to public schools. Its ok the union schill won your wife can come home now, no need to hide in the teachers lounge drinking coffee till the administators leave.

Let's not make this personal. Let's just enjoy a spirited debate and try to expand our perspectives a bit.

 

[glockednlocked]

STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE ! WE WANT BETTER COFFEE FOR WHEN WE ARE..............Working? Pretending to be working? Thats right GRADEING PAPERS AND DOING CLASS PREP FOR HOURS AND HOURS EVERYDAY lol.
Where is my union rep? this coffee is not STARBUCKS and I think I hurt my back getting out of my chair today to yell at a child for not singing the obama song loud enough during math class

 

[BravoMike]

STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE ! WE WANT BETTER COFFEE FOR WHEN WE ARE..............Working? Pretending to be working? Thats right GRADEING PAPERS AND DOING CLASS PREP FOR HOURS AND HOURS EVERYDAY lol.
Where is my union rep? this coffee is not STARBUCKS and I think I hurt my back getting out of my chair today to yell at a child for not singing the obama song loud enough during math class

So much ingnorance....

You don't agree with me so you are going to act like a 13yo? I don't get it.

 

[glockednlocked]

I am not attacking anyone personally just voicing my opinion citeing the only example of excellence that you put forward.
My comments should not be taken personally but as a sketch of opinions I feel toward a mythical composite of union teachers I see and or hear screeching for their own goals and not those of the children.

 

[steveh_131]

Ok that is part of my point. Anything can be done by way of free market, but I don't think that everything should be. Including education. I guess that's just my .

You truly believe that the government is doing a better job than a free market would? Explain that to me.

I believe you when you say that your wife is a hard worker and passionate about her job. And that being the case, she is most likely grossly underpaid and unappreciated. Living in fear of losing her job because of some spineless bureaucrat. In the meantime, some old hag who has tenure is doing crossword puzzles and complaining about republicans while pulling in twice your wife's salary.

Now, let's look at this in a free market. If she's a great teacher, and parents are pleased with her performance and willing to pay for it, she would be well paid and in high demand while the old hag would be passing out shopping carts in wal-mart instead of poorly educating our children.

But...you think this is working?

 

[SmileDocHill]

I am not attacking anyone personally just voicing my opinion citeing the only example of excellence that you put forward. Wrong, you are making this personal.
My comments should not be taken personally but as a sketch of opinions I feel toward a mythical composite of union teachers I see and or hear screeching for their own goals and not those of the children.

Then word it as such instead of speaking of someone's wife specifically. You write about somebody's wife as the subject, then act like you wrote about "a mythical composite of union teachers".

To all:
Keep the conversation/debate about the issues not about individual people.

 

[Mad Macs]

You truly believe that the government is doing a better job than a free market would? Explain that to me.

I believe you when you say that your wife is a hard worker and passionate about her job. And that being the case, she is most likely grossly underpaid and unappreciated. Living in fear of losing her job because of some spineless bureaucrat. In the meantime, some old hag who has tenure is doing crossword puzzles and complaining about republicans while pulling in twice your wife's salary.

Now, let's look at this in a free market. If she's a great teacher, and parents are pleased with her performance and willing to pay for it, she would be well paid and in high demand while the old hag would be passing out shopping carts in wal-mart instead of poorly educating our children.

But...you think this is working?

You're making a lot of assumptions in your post. I personally have NEVER seen a teacher sitting there doing crossword puzzles during the workday. Most teachers I know are very hard working professionals who want to be treated that way.