IN State Super of Ed

[steveh_131]

You're making a lot of assumptions in your post. I personally have NEVER seen a teacher sitting there doing crossword puzzles during the workday. Most teachers I know are very hard working professionals who want to be treated that way.

I've had some horrendous teachers, in what was supposed to be a fantastic school system.

Yes, I used hyperbole, but I would bet my next paycheck that his wife knows some crappy teachers who make substantially more than she does.

 

[Mad Macs]

I've had some horrendous teachers, in what was supposed to be a fantastic school system.

Yes, I used hyperbole, but I would bet my next paycheck that his wife knows some crappy teachers who make substantially more than she does.

I know there are SOME bad teachers out there, but the climate is changing. School district administrators are getting smarter about getting rid of them or shuffling them off to other positions where they will have less impact.

That can be said about any job at any business, sure everybody knows somebody who gets paid more to do less.

 

[BravoMike]

You truly believe that the government is doing a better job than a free market would? Explain that to me.

I believe you when you say that your wife is a hard worker and passionate about her job. And that being the case, she is most likely grossly underpaid and unappreciated. Living in fear of losing her job because of some spineless bureaucrat. In the meantime, some old hag who has tenure is doing crossword puzzles and complaining about republicans while pulling in twice your wife's salary.

Now, let's look at this in a free market. If she's a great teacher, and parents are pleased with her performance and willing to pay for it, she would be well paid and in high demand while the old hag would be passing out shopping carts in wal-mart instead of poorly educating our children.

But...you think this is working?

I was referring to regulation. I wasn't refering to privatization of schools. I even agreed with you, that if there is a good way to do this with regulation and equal standardization across the board, I could see that.

 

[steveh_131]

I know there are SOME bad teachers out there, but the climate is changing. School district administrators are getting smarter about getting rid of them or shuffling them off to other positions where they will have less impact.

So you claim. It sounds like this new lady in charge intends to do the exact opposite.

I was referring to regulation. I wasn't refering to privatization of schools. I even agreed with you, that if there is a good way to do this with regulation and equal standardization across the board, I could see that.

Regulation precludes privatization. It precludes a free market.

 

[Mad Macs]

So you claim. It sounds like this new lady in charge intends to do the exact opposite.

It's not that high, I've seen it happen on a district level with known ineffective teachers.

 

[BravoMike]

Regulation precludes privatization. It precludes a free market.

So then we have no where near what you consider a free market here in the US, correct?

 

[steveh_131]

It's not that high, I've seen it happen on a district level with known ineffective teachers.

I'm not saying it doesn't. But the system as a whole is clearly failing.

 

[steveh_131]

So then we have no where near what you consider a free market here in the US, correct?

Some sectors are more free than others. But no, it is largely not a free market.

 

[88GT]

Are you anti-college because you flunked out or could not be admitted or is it something else?

God, what is it with you people and straw men in this argument?

I am not anti-college. I have TWO degrees. And college doesn't teach people to teach. And nothing college provides is found solely at college.

Yes, desire is all that is necessary. Not merely wanting something. Deep soul-driven desire. I want to lose weight. Right now I just don't have the desire, or I'd stop stealing my kids' Halloween candy and get more physical activity. Desire drives everything else. Do you wanna be a doc? You'll go find out what you need to know/do to be a doc.

College degrees in education teach teachers how to manage large classrooms under a single system of education. They don't teach teachers how to teach. Teaching isn't about methods. It's more than those. Those educators in public schools who are doing well are teachers. They'll throw everything they learned in college out the window if it means finding a way to connect with the students, engage them.

There are a thousand or so educators in Indiana who have had no college "Training" for being educators and do it every day in their homes. If college is necessary, how is it that these parents/grandparents are doing it so successfully.

I know teachers from private and public schools and each is not without their problems. To come out and insult teachers in the manner that glockednloaded did is completely off base with my experience with teachers. When I went to school I went to both private a public schools. One was even a DOD school when we where living in Germany. I did get a good education and was fortunate enough to go to good schools. My wife has taught at both public and private schools so I do have a perspective on both. If you want to make an argument about privatizing schools, that is fine. However, don't think it will "fix" all the problems and there will always be those that are insatiable.

To support the notion that public school teachers are lazy and highly paid is just complete crap, IMO.

This is laughable. Utter hypocrisy. Teacher employment/merit-based pay/advancement shouldn't be implemented because a few of them are lazy, ineffective, or just plain bad. But, oh, no, those evil homeschoolers have to be heavily regulated because we've heard that people use homeschooling for ill.

You still haven't answered my question though: if you have no authority to step into my house and influence the way I raise my children, then why do you think I should be regulated as a homeschooler? And by the government, which is clearly not the best option?

I am a capitalist, but not an anarcho capitalist. I don't believe that everything will get better with a new system. Just becuase its new and different does not make it better. I really don't like all or nothing systems as I think there should be checks and balances. Now, maybe if we have a private school system with regulation I might go with that. There would have to be the same standards though, no one school is better than another.

I'm not an anarcho capitalist either. But what steve is suggesting doesn't require it.

And it wouldn't be new. It would be a return to the status quo of yesteryear. Public schools existed with absolute parental control over them. But there was no state or federal oversight. And prior to the industrial revolution, home education was the only education the majority of Americans could get. The only alternative was extremely expensive boarding schools.

It's interesting to note here, I suppose, that literacy rates where higher when government didn't compel attendance at their own institutions.

I work in the airline industry and I think this is a perfect example of how people are not happy with any of the airlines, yet there is no government carrier. I'm not suggesting that we go with a government carrier, but using this as an example that things may not be as rosey as you hoped under the system you seem to propose for schools.

The government does have to own/provide the service to make it awful. It just has to regulate it to the point where none of the decisions that matter to the buying public are negotiable. I can't carry a firearm on a plane. I can't board a plane without government searches that would get anybody but the TSA arrested and convicted of assault and placed on the sex offender registry. I can't purchase a ticket that includes nothing but the per capita cost of doing business and whatever overage the carrier charges to get his desired profit. How much of ticket is regulatory charges and taxes? Nobody is happy because the government has it's dirty little hands in it. Not because it owns/provides it.

I mean no offense here, but you are living in a world of theory. It is a great theory that parents would take responsibility and do what's in the best interest of their child, but that's not reality. What is society's role in these situations? Nothing? I am reading your argument to be: they are my kids and I'll do what I want. I don't think children are property though, they have rights and freedoms just like their parents. Humor me by allowing me to take this in a different, although similar, direction. You come home from work and see your neighbor's kid chained to a metal post in the backyard. His kid, he can do as he sees fit. The next morning you go out to knock the frost of the morning newspaper and the neighbor's kid is still chained to the post, shivering. Do you think that you, the state, or anyone else has any responsibility to act on that child's behalf?

It wasn't theory. It was reality.

Your example brings up a point that's difficult to pin down a black and white. In your example, it's clear the force used against the child is a force for harm. But couldn't the same thing be said of the McDonald's meal I let my kids eat for lunch today? Lots of examples of poor parenting. Where do we draw the line. I tend to leave it use of force to cause harm. But as I just illustrated, harm is hard to define for those who think children should never have to suffer a single hardship. Hell, I've been known to deny something to my kids just to make them learn how to deal with disappointment without throwing a temper tantrum ( a skill they haven't quite mastered yet).

Ok that is part of my point. Anything can be done by way of free market, but I don't think that everything should be. Including education. I guess that's just my .

Why? You still haven't answered that.

Why should I have to pay to give your kids an education? Is that your responsibility or mine?

And one more time, please provide a reason for your support for regulation for homeschoolers. I'll accept illogical opinion at this point.

 

[level.eleven]

I'm not interested in debating the an-caps, but I do have a question.

What do homeschoolers do when it comes lab science? Or is the standard model that the students go to high school at the appropriate time. I seem to remember that happening with a few classmates, but that was quite some time ago.

 

[BravoMike]

This is laughable. Utter hypocrisy. Teacher employment/merit-based pay/advancement shouldn't be implemented because a few of them are lazy, ineffective, or just plain bad. But, oh, no, those evil homeschoolers have to be heavily regulated because we've heard that people use homeschooling for ill.

Why are you so fixated on homeschoolers? Where in that post did I mention anything about homeschoolers?

You still haven't answered my question though: if you have no authority to step into my house and influence the way I raise my children, then why do you think I should be regulated as a homeschooler? And by the government, which is clearly not the best option?

Yes I did answer that question. Go back a few pages and find it for yourself. (Don't gloss over the part where I agreed with you.)

I'm not an anarcho capitalist either. But what steve is suggesting doesn't require it.

And it wouldn't be new. It would be a return to the status quo of yesteryear. Public schools existed with absolute parental control over them. But there was no state or federal oversight. And prior to the industrial revolution, home education was the only education the majority of Americans could get. The only alternative was extremely expensive boarding schools.

It's interesting to note here, I suppose, that literacy rates where higher when government didn't compel attendance at their own institutions.

OK

The government does have to own/provide the service to make it awful. It just has to regulate it to the point where none of the decisions that matter to the buying public are negotiable. I can't carry a firearm on a plane. I can't board a plane without government searches that would get anybody but the TSA arrested and convicted of assault and placed on the sex offender registry. I can't purchase a ticket that includes nothing but the per capita cost of doing business and whatever overage the carrier charges to get his desired profit. How much of ticket is regulatory charges and taxes? Nobody is happy because the government has it's dirty little hands in it. Not because it owns/provides it.

I share your sentiments about the TSA. (There I go agreeing with you again. Please don't forget it this time.) I didn't say anything about them and was not referring to them. Being a professional in my career, (I know how much you love the word professional) I am glad that there is a governing body that oversees the safety of the airlines. Part of the per capita cost of doing business as an airline is to make sure that it is safe. Like I stated before, I'm glad there is a governing body that doesn't care how the airline is doing finacially, that way they can make sure there are no corners cut.


Why? You still haven't answered that.

Once again, yes I did already answer that.

Why should I have to pay to give your kids an education? Is that your responsibility or mine?

Please provide me the post where I said that, I really don't like having words shoved in my mouth. I even agreed that private schools aren't a bad option. I just think there should be a certain amount of regulation.

And one more time, please provide a reason for your support for regulation for homeschoolers. I'll accept illogical opinion at this point.
And one more time, I never said anything like that. I even agreed with you.

It seems that you are not open to any sort of discussion. You seem to be on the constant counter-attack and want to cram your ideas down everyones throats if they do not agree with you. Is this not synonumous with what Obama has done?

 

[steveh_131]

I'm not interested in debating the an-caps, but I do have a question.

What do homeschoolers do when it comes lab science? Or is the standard model that the students go to high school at the appropriate time. I seem to remember that happening with a few classmates, but that was quite some time ago.

I can't think of anything in a high school science laboratory that couldn't be easily and cheaply replicated at home.

 

[level.eleven]

I can't think of anything in a high school science laboratory that couldn't be easily and cheaply replicated at home.

Really? A hood, compressed air, gas, clamps, stands, an organic pyrex set, a climate controlled room filled with reagents, compounds, solutions, etc. A frictionless test track, quality microscopes...I could continue but those are just a few. It is honest inquiry, to set the record straight. I guess one could purchase all that equipment, but it would not be inexpensive. I felt guilty for busting some stoppers in chemistry class and volunteered to replace them. I distilled some ether (for use in zoology class) and forgot to tape them down one evening. They shot off and shattered. They were quite expensive to replace. A quality kit can set you back a couple thousand dollars.

 

[steveh_131]

Really? A hood, compressed air, gas, clamps, stands, an organic pyrex set, a climate controlled room filled with reagents, compounds, solutions, etc. A frictionless test track, quality microscopes...I could continue but those are just a few. It is honest inquiry, to set the record straight. I guess one could purchase all that equipment, but it would not be inexpensive. I felt guilty for busting some stoppers in chemistry class and volunteered to replace them. I distilled some ether (for use in zoology class) and forgot to tape them down one evening. They shot off and shattered. They were quite expensive to replace. A quality kit can set you back a couple thousand dollars.

I guess your lab was a bit more involved than ours. We didn't have anything that nice, and nothing that involved is really required to learn the fundamentals of any given subject.

That said, if we decide to homeschool through high school years then we will have to consider this and decide for ourselves. I am sure we will be spending a lot of money on books, curriculum's and even lab equipment such as this. Homeschooling is not cheap. Hopefully, we will team up with other homeschooling families in our church and perhaps split the cost of these items and use them in a group setting.

Perhaps 88GT can chime in with other thoughts on this, I'm sure she knows much more about the specifics than I do.

 

[Coach]

You seemed to ignore the rest of her post.



You're right, no human being can love all 35 of the strangers in their classroom, and certainly won't know what's best for them. So we substitute college training for actual parenting. That might be good enough for you, but some of us would rather handle the parenting ourselves.

All they ask is that you stay out of it, because it is frankly none of your business.

Teachers should not have to be the parents. The teachers should be teaching skills, knowledge and how to think. Raising the kids is the job of the parents. My job as their teacher is to teach them history and the critical thinking skills that go with that subject. I want them to leave school, and think for themselves and be the kind of citizens this republic needs. I don't subscribe to the it takes a village to raise a child mentality. I think it takes more than one or two people to teach a child everything they need to know content wise. I don't have to love the kids in my class in order to teach them in a professional, dedicated and passionate fashion. I can treat my high school students like adults, and show them the proper respect, and expect that they do the same to me, and to each other. I can overlook all of the differences between them and I and just do the job, and do it well. A lack of passion is not the problem in most public schools. If it is in your case move or go to a different school. You have that right and that ability.

All of the people on this thread lumping all teachers into one group and making a judgement on the group are using logic and reasoning skills that are troubling. If we applied the same logic to a race instead of teachers it would be unacceptable. Judging by the group is always wrong. You have to take people individually no matter the occupation. This is, after all, America as somone else said here. Judging people on their own merits or lack of is how we do things.

 

[steveh_131]

Teachers should not have to be the parents. The teachers should be teaching skills, knowledge and how to think. Raising the kids is the job of the parents. My job as their teacher is to teach them history and the critical thinking skills that go with that subject. I want them to leave school, and think for themselves and be the kind of citizens this republic needs. I don't subscribe to the it takes a village to raise a child mentality. I think it takes more than one or two people to teach a child everything they need to know content wise. I don't have to love the kids in my class in order to teach them in a professional, dedicated and passionate fashion. I can treat my high school students like adults, and show them the proper respect, and expect that they do the same to me, and to each other. I can overlook all of the differences between them and I and just do the job, and do it well. A lack of passion is not the problem in most public schools. If it is in your case move or go to a different school. You have that right and that ability.

All of the people on this thread lumping all teachers into one group and making a judgement on the group are using logic and reasoning skills that are troubling. If we applied the same logic to a race instead of teachers it would be unacceptable. Judging by the group is always wrong. You have to take people individually no matter the occupation. This is, after all, America as somone else said here. Judging people on their own merits or lack of is how we do things.

I'm not judging the people. I'm judging the system that attracts and rewards the bad ones.

 

[88GT]

Why are you so fixated on homeschoolers? Where in that post did I mention anything about homeschoolers?

Because I am one and you and your candidate are threats to me. I don't suffer hypocrisy lightly, particularly when it includes a double standard that hurts me and protects others.

Yes I did answer that question. Go back a few pages and find it for yourself. (Don't gloss over the part where I agreed with you.)

You admitted you have no authority to control, but repeated your desire to control. I'm asking how you can justify an action you admit you have no authority to do. Or to justify why you think the government has a role in it.

I share your sentiments about the TSA. (There I go agreeing with you again. Please don't forget it this time.) I didn't say anything about them and was not referring to them. Being a professional in my career, (I know how much you love the word professional) I am glad that there is a governing body that oversees the safety of the airlines. Part of the per capita cost of doing business as an airline is to make sure that it is safe. Like I stated before, I'm glad there is a governing body that doesn't care how the airline is doing finacially, that way they can make sure there are no corners cut.

You don't think the individual companies couldn't maintain a safety record without some sort of government intervention? (TSA was just an example, not meant to be taken as the crux of the argument.)

Once again, yes I did already answer that.

Not really.

Please provide me the post where I said that, I really don't like having words shoved in my mouth. I even agreed that private schools aren't a bad option. I just think there should be a certain amount of regulation.

Do you support public education or not? If you do, you are implicitly supporting the idea that I (and others) are responsible for your kids' education.

And one more time, I never said anything like that. I even agreed with you.

You have stated multiple times you support equal standards for all forms of education (public and private). How is that not regulating homeschoolers? How would propose to impose standards without regulation?

 

[88GT]

Perhaps 88GT can chime in with other thoughts on this, I'm sure she knows much more about the specifics than I do.

Dual-credit courses at local colleges and universities.

For the easier-to-replicate-at-home science there are several resources that won't break the budget. You can even get the obligatory frog and shark to dissect.

 

[level.eleven]

I guess your lab was a bit more involved than ours. We didn't have anything that nice, and nothing that involved is really required to learn the fundamentals of any given subject.

That said, if we decide to homeschool through high school years then we will have to consider this and decide for ourselves. I am sure we will be spending a lot of money on books, curriculum's and even lab equipment such as this. Homeschooling is not cheap. Hopefully, we will team up with other homeschooling families in our church and perhaps split the cost of these items and use them in a group setting.

Perhaps 88GT can chime in with other thoughts on this, I'm sure she knows much more about the specifics than I do.

I'm interested in how a homeschooler would go about the simplest of laboratory setups. Something like a Buchner funnel and flask. I wonder if homeschoolers go all in on topics like this. Sure, you can construct this in your garage or what have you, but how many homeschoolers do this?

 

[level.eleven]

Dual-credit courses at local colleges and universities.

For the easier-to-replicate-at-home science there are several resources that won't break the budget. You can even get the obligatory frog and shark to dissect.

Ah, so you do lean on the public when times get tough. I see.