"If I`m Ever In a Gun Fight"

[BehindBlueI's]

There's some pretty fascinating opinions floating around in this thread. I particularly like the concept of suppressive fire making an appearance in an EDC handgun discussion.

Carry what you shoot the best the fastest at real world encounter distances. Not carrying a semi-auto due to reliability issues is an outdated concept. There are tons of reliable SA's out there. I own a couple that have thousands of rounds without a single malfunction with factory ammo. Not carrying a revolver (that you shoot well) because of capacity is weighting a single aspect of firearm selection out of proportion to its utility. More ammo is better. More accuracy, faster target acquisition, more natural pointing, that all matters more and matters more often. Choose your handgun accordingly.

 

[6mm Shoot]

If I am ever in a gun fight I want a shotgun or rifle. Not a hand gun! I want some thing that will put an end to it as fast as possible. I do carry a Glcok 36 just in case. I only carry extra mags if I am going in to places I don't know.

I have carried revolvers and never felt I was under gunned. I did carry speed loaders at that time. The only reason I carry the Glock now is it easier to carry than a revolver. Less bulk than a revolver. The two extra rounds don't really mean much to me. If some thing goes wrong and six isn't enough than I should have brought the shotgun. Such is life.

 

[murmur70]

If the OP hadn't used words like "dumb" and "stupid" this discusion might have gone differently.

 

[g00n24]

I didn't fee like reading through 9 pages...but lets not forget about the possibility of finding ourselves in an active shooter situation where we may need to fire a significant number of rounds at someone better armed then ourselves to stop the threat. This is why my main carry is a g23 with a 15rd reload and a 13rd reload. JIC

 

[g00n24]

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[g00n24]

There's some pretty fascinating opinions floating around in this thread. I particularly like the concept of suppressive fire making an appearance in an EDC handgun discussion.

Carry what you shoot the best the fastest at real world encounter distances. Not carrying a semi-auto due to reliability issues is an outdated concept. There are tons of reliable SA's out there. I own a couple that have thousands of rounds without a single malfunction with factory ammo. Not carrying a revolver (that you shoot well) because of capacity is weighting a single aspect of firearm selection out of proportion to its utility. More ammo is better. More accuracy, faster target acquisition, more natural pointing, that all matters more and matters more often. Choose your handgun accordingly.

I can see suppressive fire being important in an active shooter situation...You will most likely be under-gunned, and in my mind it would make sense to get as many rounds towards the BG and make him seek cover ASAP so you could make your escape. That's really the only way I see suppressive fire being used in a self-defense role.

 

[BE Mike]

I wouldn't count on shooting and missing (suppressive fire) to deter an opponent, especially if the presence of your firearm didn't deter him in the first place. Suppressive fire does seem to have merit in a military tactical situation (shoot and maneuver) when used in a team effort.

 

[HoughMade]

I wouldn't count on shooting and missing (suppressive fire) to deter an opponent, especially if the presence of your firearm didn't deter him in the first place. Suppressive fire does seem to have merit in a military tactical situation (shoot and maneuver) when used in a team effort.

Would seem pretty rare in a personal defense situation, but I never viewed suppressive fire as an effort to shoot and miss (even though that may be the practical result), at least not until I lift or shift to allow for an assaulting element to maneuver...but on this, I'll gladly proclaim that I am no expert.

 

[kludge]

I don't have to worry about a jam, I pull the trigger and it fires.

I bent a hammer spring on one revolver, forget which one or how - it happened when trying to go fast. I've had far more misfires and jams on my S&W Model 19 (many light strikes) and my Ruger Service Six (bent ejector rod from a short stroke locked it up) than on my XD (zero). And I've had 10x to 100x as many rounds through my XD.

AND it holds twice as many rounds as either, AND it's faster to reload, AND each reload gives me twice as many rounds.

Sure you could say it was ammo related (light strikes -- it wasn't, it's the light factory hammer spring) or user error (it was, I short stroked it), but ammo malfunctions and user error can happen to revolvers or semi autos. The same thing could happen no matter which one you choose.

If you jam a revolver (e.g. bullet jumps crimp) you better have another gun, cuz all you have is a rock. If you jam a semi-auto it's tap, rack, bang.

The other statistic to consider is that 80% of shots are misses. Two hits is twice as good as one (12 rounds in my XD vs. 6 in my revolver).

 

[glockednlocked]

old well hashed out conversation and at the end of the day do what YOU feel best for YOU and your situation. I live a boring low risk life on purpose and have often carried a 5 shot snubby and survived. I now often carry a full size auto and a spare mag(s) My thought is I can shoot 3 shots at 3 yards in 3 seconds with either the 5 shot snubby or the multi round auto but...... can I deal with multiple threats at mixed distances armed with full capacity handguns or long guns with either? We arnt all nypd, just because I have it I don't plan to shoot to empty unless I need to but if I need it I will sure be glad I have it.

 

[in625shooter]

I bent a hammer spring on one revolver, forget which one or how - it happened when trying to go fast. I've had far more misfires and jams on my S&W Model 19 (many light strikes) and my Ruger Service Six (bent ejector rod from a short stroke locked it up) than on my XD (zero). And I've had 10x to 100x as many rounds through my XD.

AND it holds twice as many rounds as either, AND it's faster to reload, AND each reload gives me twice as many rounds.

Sure you could say it was ammo related (light strikes -- it wasn't, it's the light factory hammer spring) or user error (it was, I short stroked it), but ammo malfunctions and user error can happen to revolvers or semi autos. The same thing could happen no matter which one you choose.

If you jam a revolver (e.g. bullet jumps crimp) you better have another gun, cuz all you have is a rock. If you jam a semi-auto it's tap, rack, bang.

The other statistic to consider is that 80% of shots are misses. Two hits is twice as good as one (12 rounds in my XD vs. 6 in my revolver).

Respectfully it is 6 of one and half dozen of the other. The only thing that autos have an advantage is round count. Reloads if you train are just as quick with a revolver. I have seen auto shooters need a sun dial to time their reloads simply because they didn't think it was that hard and didn't practice like they should. (but I've got all these rounds"

The revolver issues you described are "mechanical failures" any firearm will fail of only partially work with that however autos are more susceptible and fail (ie jam) more than revolvers due to there is more mechanical action going on to make it work No different than why a helicopter costs more per flight hour than an airplane...helicopters have more moving parts thus more involved to keep running.

As far as your ammunition examples the only rounds I have ever seen jump a crimp were 1 or 2 others hand loads (which hand loads shouldn't be used for self defense) I have however seen more issues with squib rounds where only the primer goes off (or the powder was left out) and it drives the projectile into the bore which disables revolver or semi auto alike.

Not knocking autos I have used SIG's for a duty weapon for the last decade and they have been flawless but being an instructor for a couple agencies the last 20 some years I have seen my share of everything on the line and there is more of a chance of an auto jamming over a revolver period, "some" auto shooters accuracy isn't as good because of the mindset (again) but, I have all these rounds" which relate to hey get sloppy with fundamentals. Autos are also susceptible to a malfunction if the shooter uses poor form on purpose or say they are wounded and can not grip the firearm properly where revolvers do not have that problem.

So we all can play a tennis match on this back and forth but,

The only time someone is outgunned with a revolver is when their mind tells them they are!

 

[Birds Away]

I think I'll carry what I like. I strongly recommend you do the same. Have a nice day!

 

[Rob377]

Respectfully it is 6 of one and half dozen of the other. The only thing that autos have an advantage is round count. Reloads if you train are just as quick with a revolver. I have seen auto shooters need a sun dial to time their reloads simply because they didn't think it was that hard and didn't practice like they should.

The revolver issues you described are "mechanical failures" any firearm will fail of only partially work with that however autos are more susceptible and fail (ie jam) more than revolvers due to there is more mechanical action going on to make it work No different than why a helicopter costs more per flight hour than an airplane...helicopters have more moving parts thus more involved to keep running.

As far as your ammunition examples the only rounds I have ever seen jump a crimp were 1 or 2 others hand loads (which hand loads shouldn't be used for self defense) I have however seen more issues with squib rounds where only the primer goes off (or the powder was left out) and it drives the projectile into the bore which disables revolver or semi auto alike.

Not knocking autos I have used SIG's for a duty weapon for the last decade and they have been flawless but being an instructor for a couple agencies the last 20 some years I have seen my share of everything on the line and there is more of a chance of an auto jamming over a revolver period, "some" auto shooters accuracy isn't as good because of the mindset I have all these rounds" which relate to hey get sloppy with fundamentals. Autos are also susceptible to a malfunction if the shooter uses poor form on purpose or say they are wounded and can not grip the firearm properly where revolvers do not have that problem.

So we all can play a tennis match on this back and forth but,

The only time someone is outgunned with a revolver is when their mind tells them they are!

I don't know of anyone aside from Jerry Miculek that can do a sub 1.5 second reload shot to shot on a revo, but it's pretty easy on a semi-auto. Comparing Jerry with a race prepped revo and probably some 38 shorties in a moonclip to a B-class USPSA shooter with a basic production gun isn't exactly fair.

 

[in625shooter]

I don't know of anyone aside from Jerry Miculek that can do a sub 1.5 second reload shot to shot on a revo, but it's pretty easy on a semi-auto. Comparing Jerry with a race prepped revo and probably some 38 shorties in a moonclip to a B-class USPSA shooter with a basic production gun isn't exactly fair.

While autos are quicker for the average shooter when someone learns the right way to reload a revolver they are very close. I have been shooting and instructing since the revolver was the only duty gun you saw (other than the military) There are several revolver shooters that can reload at the 2 second (or slightly under) with Safariland Comp 2's and 3's (or moon clips but moon clip guns never caught on as a duty gun across the board)

Those 2 second reloads were also with standard 38's or 357's. Go to any ICORE or IDPA SSR/ESR shooter that is trained right you will see them many many times.

Both have their place and everyone should carry what "they" prefer but as an instructor/LEO and competitor I have seen a ton of folks that only choose an auto because it holds a lot of rounds and they think it is quick to reload but because of those 2 items some do not learn their gun. Their marksmanship gets sloppy and miss (a lot) and/or don't practice their auto reloads so they run 3-4-7 second reloads and that's just under a timer or stress course.

All others and I am saying is if you pic a firearm only because of the amount of rounds it holds, or you think it will be quicker to reload and not your marksmanship/shootability with "your" choice your setting yourself up for failure. I have seen a ton of folks disillusioned thinking they are superior only because of their firearm choice of a wonder auto only to get out shot by that grey haired guy with a wheelgun and that look on their face is priceless, to me anyway.

 

[Rob377]

...


Both have their place and everyone should carry what "they" prefer but as an instructor/LEO and competitor I have seen a ton of folks that only choose an auto because it holds a lot of rounds and they think it is quick to reload but because of those 2 items some do not learn their gun. Their marksmanship gets sloppy and miss (a lot) and/or don't practice their auto reloads so they run 3-4-7 second reloads and that's just under a timer or stress course.

All others and I am saying is if you pic a firearm only because of the amount of rounds it holds, or you think it will be quicker to reload and not your marksmanship/shootability with "your" choice your setting yourself up for failure. I have seen a ton of folks disillusioned thinking they are superior only because of their firearm choice of a wonder auto only to get out shot by that grey haired guy with a wheelgun and that look on their face is priceless, to me anyway.

Totally agree on that point. Buying the latest and greatest tactical wizbang wondergun and sticking it in the holster with whole bunch of extra ammo won't make you competent

I know a few guys that are far better at everything shooting related with their wheelguns than 95% of semi-auto shooters out there. They put in the work and got really, really good.

That said, for a bottom-feeder, 2 seconds is turd slow reload.

 

[Hohn]

I'd like to see someone do 2-second wheelgun reloads while someone is shooting back at them. The combination of cool-headedness and physical dexterity is very rare. It demands more of the person.

That (and ammo capacity) are the two main reasons that the FBI ditched revolvers after the Dade County shootout in 1986. I don't think anything in the FBI documentation indicated unhappiness with the ballistics of their standard 158gr .38 revolver loads.

I have neither the skill or the time to try and acquire it to get that good with a wheelgun. So I prefer the bottom feeders. I need everything as easy as possible, and even now I'm probably slower than an experienced wheelgunner with speedloaders. The only real advantage I'd have is making him reload twice before I'm empty.

 

[in625shooter]

I'd like to see someone do 2-second wheelgun reloads while someone is shooting back at them. The combination of cool-headedness and physical dexterity is very rare. It demands more of the person.

That (and ammo capacity) are the two main reasons that the FBI ditched revolvers after the Dade County shootout in 1986. I don't think anything in the FBI documentation indicated unhappiness with the ballistics of their standard 158gr .38 revolver loads.

I have neither the skill or the time to try and acquire it to get that good with a wheelgun. So I prefer the bottom feeders. I need everything as easy as possible, and even now I'm probably slower than an experienced wheelgunner with speedloaders. The only real advantage I'd have is making him reload twice before I'm empty.

I won't ever say I know everything but I have been around in the LE world since the med 1980's and a LE firearms trainer since the early 1990's (to include the FED's so I do know just a little bit on what different agencies firearms doctrine is) let me just add as well. Most people would have a problem reloading ANYTHING while getting fired upon. But practice, practice and practice during stress course's as well as even simple competition will help develop those abilities but as far as how anyone will fair....well they never really know until they are deep in it!

4 years after the Miami shootings (in 1990 after all the after action reports and ballistic testing etc) the FBI went to the 10mm S&W 1076 (which only held 9 rounds) as standard issue but they never ditched the revolvers. The main reason the FBI went with the 10 mm is they blamed the performance of the 9mm silvertips that struck Platt which was mortal but he ran around shooting for a few minutes afterwards. (They concentrated on the one round that hit the mark and not the 19 that didn't hit anything) And for the record a 38 revolver from a FBI Agent Morales is what finished the fight. for the record at the time of the Miami shootings several agents were issued 9mm S&W's. Several agents kept their wheelguns until the mid to late 1990's. The FBI dropped the 10mm platform in the mid 1990's and went to SIG 9mm's until around 1998 ish when they mandated everyone be issued Glock 40 cal which stands to this day. Several SWAT qualified agents are authorized 1911's which hold only 3-4 more rounds than those wheel guns so with the choice of a 9 shot 10mm and authorized use of 8 shot 1911 not all agencies are into capacity all the time.

So the bottom line is it doesn't matter what you choose capacity doesn't usually matter, the one that uses their head is usually the one that wins, and if you know a fight is coming take your rifle because no handgun is good enough!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So the bottom line is it doesn't matter what you choose capacity doesn't usually matter,

Concur. One party usually runs out of time before either runs out of ammo. There are exceptions, hence the "usually" in625 says, but capacity is often over-weighted in decision making criteria for what handgun to carry.

 

[88E30M50]

Simple question: What scenario do you have in mind when you choose what to carry? Is it always the same scenario, hence, the same gun? Or, do you arm for the most likely scenario for different situation, resulting in different guns for different situations?