Hassled by Buffalo Wild Wings for OC at Dupont, Fort Wayne

[1943Izzy]

I was told by our police chief that you should always conceal otherwise it could be considered " brandishing a firearm" .

 

[Benny]

I realize I am in the minority on this issue but I don't understand why anybody would have a problem covering their gun if requested.

You can add me to the list of people who would probably just cover it up.

If all I have to do is flip my shirt over it, I'd rather do that then forfeit the meal I'm legally obligated to pay for.

Call me a cheap bastard if you wish, but it would take less than 1 second to cover up, then I could finish my meal and never return if I wish.

If Somebody Else does not want a Carrier to carry in that manner, he must convince Carrier to change the carry method by one of two means: reason or force. (For more on the concept of "reason or force", check out Reason or Force.) In the scenario wherein Carrier has decided to open carry, the reason provided by Somebody Else must somehow override the reasons which compelled Carrier to choose OC in the first place. This is not impossible, of course, but it may be difficult for Somebody Else to do, depending on who Carrier is, his background, past experiences, mood, medications, attire, handicap, language, et al.

Would(/could) there even be a "reason" out there for you to cover up, if you are already that dead-set in your ways? I'm talking about you specifically, not in general.

 

[ATM]

I was told by our police chief that you should always conceal otherwise it could be considered " brandishing a firearm" .

Your Chief is incorrect, and "brandishing a firearm" is not illegal in Indiana anyway.

 

[rmabrey]

Your Chief is incorrect, and "brandishing a firearm" is not illegal in Indiana anyway.

^^ damn alert system. You beat me to it again

 

[rmabrey]

You can add me to the list of people who would probably just cover it up.

If all I have to do is flip my shirt over it, I'd rather do that then forfeit the meal I'm legally obligated to pay for.

Call me a cheap bastard if you wish, but it would take less than 1 second to cover up, then I could finish my meal and never return if I wish.

Not technically, Its been discussed before, but IMO you have entered into a contract with that establishment, should they ask you to leave before your meal is finished they broke that contract.

 

[mk2ja]

Would(/could) there even be a "reason" out there for you to cover up, if you are already that dead-set in your ways? I'm talking about you specifically, not in general.

Me, personally: Yes, there would/could be a "reason" out there for me to cover up. The situation love machine suggested earlier, for instance (quoted my response below for easy reference).

You know how they say we should decide in advance how we'll respond to different situations? It's the same story whether we take defensive handgun training classes, whether it is a DARE program teaching you to "just say no to drugs," or a youth pastor encouraging you to decide in advance to wait until marriage for sex. In all of these, if you make up your mind ahead of time, all you have to do is remember your "training" for responding to that situation instead of trying to figure how to respond WHILE you are responding.

Admittedly, I had not determined in advance how to respond to this situation. Also, now when you pose your question, I've had more time to reflect. And with hindsight being what it is, I believe that, if a manager approaches me with that argument to make his request, there is a pretty good chance my response will be different in the future. Knowing myself and my attitudes, if the manager at BWW had used it, there's also a good chance my reaction last Friday would have been different, but I can't say with certainty. (Those who are honest with themselves know that it is tough to say, "well, if only he had done this, I would have done this instead of that" with any true degree of certainty.)

Good question, love machine. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Benny]

Not technically, Its been discussed before, but IMO you have entered into a contract with that establishment, should they ask you to leave before your meal is finished they broke that contract.

So(for argument's sake), if someone decides to rack up a big bill and doesn't really feel like paying for it, they could just cause enough commotion to be asked to leave and they wouldn't have to pay?

It isn't illegal to stand on a chair and start yelling is it? Even if it was, I'm sure there are PLENTY of situations you could "disrupt" customers and be asked to leave without breaking any rules.



Let me be clear, I don't think mk2ja did anything wrong, I'm just asking questions to add to the discussion...I'd also like to know the answers.

 

[mk2ja]

You can add me to the list of people who would probably just cover it up.

If all I have to do is flip my shirt over it, I'd rather do that then forfeit the meal I'm legally obligated to pay for.

Call me a cheap bastard if you wish, but it would take less than 1 second to cover up, then I could finish my meal and never return if I wish.

Not technically, Its been discussed before, but IMO you have entered into a contract with that establishment, should they ask you to leave before your meal is finished they broke that contract.

Well, SemperFiUSMC suggested there is an actual law stipulating you'd have to pay for it. I haven't tried to find it yet, though.

As far as not paying (other post) because you are "kicked out", don't do it. It's a violation of the Innkeeper's law (don't know the statute and too lazy to look it up tonight). You can absolutely go to jail for failing to pay a food bill when asked to leave.

Zook, you're a cheap bastard!

 

[Benny]

Me, personally: Yes, there would/could be a "reason" out there for me to cover up. The situation love machine suggested earlier, for instance (quoted my response below for easy reference).

There are a LOT of posts in this thread...What did love machine say(or around what post did he say it so I can go find it)?

What would have been a good reason for you to decide to cover it up?

 

[rmabrey]

So(for argument's sake), if someone decides to rack up a big bill and doesn't really feel like paying for it, they could just cause enough commotion to be asked to leave and they wouldn't have to pay?

It isn't illegal to stand on a chair and start yelling is it? Even if it was, I'm sure there are PLENTY of situations you could "disrupt" customers and be asked to leave without breaking any rules.



Let me be clear, I don't think mk2ja did anything wrong, I'm just asking questions to add to the discussion...I'd also like to know the answers.

No those people would have the police called on them

There was a thread not to long ago where an OC was asked to leave and the manager tried to make him pay but the LEO on scene said he didnt have to. The situation was pretty similar to MK2ja's scenario.

Its not a perfect science, but in MOST scenarios, you should not have to pay. Making an ass of yourself is not one of those scenarios.

 

[Benny]

Zook, you're a cheap bastard!

To be completely honest, I'd be more upset on seeing delicious food go to waste than paying for something I didn't get to eat, but either way I'd rather just take .5 seconds to cover up my side arm and then proceed to stuff my face.















Then never go back if I felt their request was unreasonable(and/or management was being obnoxious about it).

 

[Benny]

No those people would have the police called on them

Its not a perfect science, but in MOST scenarios, you should not have to pay. Making an ass of yourself is not one of those scenarios.

What if you are a really loud laugher and you are hanging out with someone really funny? You wouldn't be trying to make an ass out of yourself, but you could easily disrupt some of the other patrons.

What about if you have a nasty cough? If the restaurant is quiet enough and your cough persists, I'm sure that could get on some of the customer's nerves, but it's not like you are doing it voluntarily.

There was a thread not to long ago where an OC was asked to leave and the manager tried to make him pay but the LEO on scene said he didnt have to. The situation was pretty similar to MK2ja's scenario.

Call me crazy, but I bet situations like this are few and far between...Even if it isn't the law, I guarantee you it is up to officer discretion; in the story you are referring to, the officer was probably gun friendly and/or knew the law.



With all of that being said...IMO, if there isn't a sign in plain site on the front door prohibiting firearms, you shouldn't have to pay when asked to leave. You also shouldn't OC into that establishment anyway(or even give them your business in the first place, for that matter).

 

[ATM]

...What did love machine say(or around what post did he say it so I can go find it)?

Um... click on his quoted response and it's right there for you.

 

[rmabrey]

What if you are a really loud laugher and you are hanging out with someone really funny? You wouldn't be trying to make an ass out of yourself, but you could easily disrupt some of the other patrons.

What about if you have a nasty cough? If the restaurant is quiet enough and your cough persists, I'm sure that could get on some of the customer's nerves, but it's not like you are doing it voluntarily.

Any manager that would ask you to leave for these situations is probably going to make you pay, cause their business is failing and they cant afford to write that one off.

 

[Benny]

Um... click on his quoted response and it's right there for you.

LOL, all this time I've been here and I've NEVER clicked on that little blue square.

Thanks.



BTW, that was a great question.

Any manager that would ask you to leave for these situations is probably going to make you pay, cause their business is failing and they cant afford to write that one off.

And by "make" you pay, you mean allow you to finish your meal first before paying, right?

 

[rmabrey]

L
And by "make" you pay, you mean allow you to finish your meal first before paying, right?

Yes, Thats the only fair trade off in situations where an individual is not being an ass. Both parties meet their end of the agreement.

ETA: I misread your question, my original statement was sarcasm as in the reasons would be stupid for a manager to ask you to leave and if thats how they run a business they cant afford for you to not pay.

 

[mk2ja]

What would have been a good reason for you to decide to cover it up?

Was the one you (eventually) found good? Or should I provide another? Just wondering if that satisfied your curiosity.

There was a thread not to long ago where an OC was asked to leave and the manager tried to make him pay but the LEO on scene said he didnt have to. The situation was pretty similar to MK2ja's scenario.

What, what? Really? Dude, link me up.

To be completely honest, I'd be more upset on seeing delicious food go to waste than paying for something I didn't get to eat, but either way I'd rather just take .5 seconds to cover up my side arm and then proceed to stuff my face.

Then never go back if I felt their request was unreasonable(and/or management was being obnoxious about it).

I assume you know that was sarcasm, my friend. I don't really think you're a cheap b. I just couldn't resist since you invited us all to call you one

 

[lawrra]

No those people would have the police called on them

There was a thread not to long ago where an OC was asked to leave and the manager tried to make him pay but the LEO on scene said he didnt have to. The situation was pretty similar to MK2ja's scenario.

Its not a perfect science, but in MOST scenarios, you should not have to pay. Making an ass of yourself is not one of those scenarios.

I remember some of this and I believe it was also in Fort Wayne. The restaurant in this situation was Cebolla's.

 

[rmabrey]

What, what? Really? Dude, link me up.

/quote]
This would be much easier if I could remember the name of the restaurant and search for it. I have two test tomorrow so I really need to go stufy but as soon as I find it ill post it, assuming someone hasnt beat me to it by then

 

[rmabrey]

I remember some of this and I believe it was also in Fort Wayne. The restaurant in this situation was Cebolla's.

thats it