Hassled by Buffalo Wild Wings for OC at Dupont, Fort Wayne

[mk2ja]

Would it make any difference if the girl instead of saying no, said instead, please don't, please stop? Or would it still be wrong?

I think we're focusing on the wrong part of the encounter. What matters is: if the girl is on property owned or managed by the man, then she doesn't have the right (crap, finity, I read your post, but I still don't get when to use 'r' or 'R') to decline his request for sex.

"She came over to my place. I asked her for sex, but she politely declined. Obviously, 'my house, my rules' came into play, and since she didn't leave on her own, I had the right to use force to compel her to have sex with me."

That seems to be the most analogous to the situation in the OP. And I think we can all agree that the girl would NOT be required to leave in order to avoid being forced to do something she didn't want to do—something she couldn't be convinced by reason to do.

No idea what state that site is referring to but it sure as heck isn't IN. I'm sure of that because of the minor and alcohol reference. If I take my 16 year old out for their birthday, it is illegal for me to order them a glass of wine, or to let them have one in my house. The site says it's okay.

Oh, I didn't know that! I guess it's been a while since I was under 18 and since I don't have kids, I've never really tried to figure that out. In case anybody is interested in the official record, it is in IC 7.1-5-7 sections 9-11.

 

[Roadie]

If the manager had said leave and repeatedly said leave then that would be a correct analog.

I think the young man handled himself very well, he was approached with what he considered an unreasonable request and politely informed the guy, since the rude guy never introduced himself, that he wouldn't abide by his request. If I'm ever in the same situation I hope I can remain as calm as he did.

I dont agree that it is a correct analog, as rape is a crime, carrying a gun openly is not..

 

[mk2ja]

Finity, well done. Amazing time investment on the reply, and well said.

Easy for you to say! You don't have to try to reply to such a huge post! I was thinking, man, I wish he would've broken these up into individual replies so it'd be easier to for me to write my replies. Haha. It's all good. I'll get to it, but probably not for a while. (Gotta go for a run, then work, then only a little sleep before working again, and then the gym again with my same friend, as we do every Friday night. I may have time at work later tonight to get on here, but we'll see. So, all be advised, it may be a while before I reply after this post.)

OP...I may have missed it...but what kind of tip did you leave?

Oh...and finity...

2 bucks on an $8 check. Wasn't going to take anything out on the waitress; she'd done a good job.

 

[ATM]

Easy for you to say! You don't have to try to reply to such a huge post!

Here's how I'd do it:

Ok...

...I think this is the longest post I've ever written.

Not sure - tl;dr

 

[Benny]

Huh.

Not one person has stood up & gave Strato “kudos” for standing up for his 1A rights & told Scutter he had no Right to tell him otherwise.

Interesting.

Because repeatedly insulting someone = eating a meal with a gun on your hip?

What if mk2ja was insulting other customers during his meal? Golly gee, I bet he would have been told to leave.

OK. So as long as they “asked” the girl to have sex & she said no & they did it anyway against her wishes, it’s not rape?

Good to know. I’m sure you’ll tell your daughters that if you ever have any.

Flawed analogy is flawed.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I love reading the OP and then skipping to the end just to see how far fetched things can get.

This does not disappoint. BTW, good job handling the situation.

 

[Benny]

I love reading the OP and then skipping to the end just to see how far fetched things can get.

This does not disappoint. BTW, good job handling the situation.

What, you mean like comparing what the OP did to raping a girl?

 

[rmabrey]

Hey, Mr Strato has 1A rights! Doesn’t he?

yes he does, but as has been pointed out in this thread, you have no rights in someone else's house. This is Fenways house and Scutter is an agent acting on Fenway's behalf.

Huh.

Not one person has stood up & gave Strato “kudos” for standing up for his 1A rights & told Scutter he had no Right to tell him otherwise.

Again this is Fenway's house and Fenway does not allow name calling, and most of us don't condone it. It is uncalled for, particularly in this thread which has been one of the most civil of its kind I have seen on INGO in a while and I'm sure most of us would like it to stay that way. Also, I take it more personal that he would call out the OP because I have met him and listened to him speak on many subjects and I do not believe that it is in his character and upbringing to make this up (I have also met his father), and unlike Strato I am not speaking from what i have read but rather what I have heard in person.

Really?

Who’d a thunk it?

Finity I also would like to commend you on your post, That must have taken some time.

 

[Benny]

Finity I also would like to commend you on your post, That must have taken some time.

If anyone ever calls finity a post whore, just point them to that post to shut them up...He could have racked up about 100 posts if he split that baby up.

 

[rmabrey]

If anyone ever calls finity a post whore, just point them to that post to shut them up...He could have racked up about 100 posts if he split that baby up.

if you teach him, he will learn

 

[Mr.Strato]

I'm just bamboozeled you guys give that fodder any credibility!
Have you actually read this stuff???

"unlike Strato I am not speaking from what i have read " THAT explains it!

"I did take the opportunity to explain to him the importance of keeping silent when speaking with cops" keeping silent when talking indeed...

 

[Benny]

if you teach him, he will learn

You have more PPD than I do...You should do the honors.

 

[Benny]

I'm just bamboozeled you guys give that fodder any credibility!
Have you actually read this stuff???

"unlike Strato I am not speaking from what i have read " THAT explains it!

"I did take the opportunity to explain to him the importance of keeping silent when speaking with cops" keeping silent when talking indeed...

YouTube - You've Been Bamboozled!

 

[Hammerhead]

Finity, I've been trying to think of the proper words to offer a rebuttal to your position. I had to do some research, and I believe I have it now. I do, however, appreciate your well thought out responses in this discussion. I don't agree, but I respect your position.

Here's my rebuttal. I've already stated that mk2ja is not required to acquiesce to any request put forth by the manager. The manager has the right to refuse service for any reason. The manger has the right to ask a person to leave, and if refused, trespass the offender.

However, here's where I believe you're incorrect regarding this matter. You believe that property owners have a right to dictate anything that happens on their property. If you were to come onto my property, I can require you to be wearing blue socks (or any arbitrary requirement for this statement). But what happens if you don't wear blue socks? I can deny you entry onto my property, or make you leave. That is my right as property owner. Ok, so what happens if I ask you once you're on my property to put these blue socks on? Or if I demand you put blue socks on?

Nothing. The next step is...asking or demanding that you leave, or having you removed from my property. This process has nothing to do with the request/demand, but the ability to have you punished for not leaving.

This is the enforcement of the property rights as laid out in the law.

So, let's use the OP as the example. He went to private property (the restaurant) and was wearing his sidearm openly. The "manager" requested that he cover or remove the sidearm from the property. The OP said no, even after repeated requests. Even with the bluff from the "manager" of calling the police, the OP knew he was not required to submit to the request.

For there to be a right of the "manager" to require covering or removal of the sidearm, there must be an enforceable duty to the OP to relent. There is no possible way, in IN law, for the "manager" to enforce any request, other than "leave" or "pay" or "don't return". This is because 1)open carry is legal with a LTCH and 2)there is no law enforcing "no firearms" signs or policies. Yes, there are places that firearms carry is restricted, and these are codified in the IC.

The manager can not enforce a cover or remove request, nor can the police, nor can a judge. Let me be clear. A judge can remove your right to carry under certain circumstances (restraining order). A judge cannot tell you that if you are legal, absent some other factor, that you cannot carry legally if you are carrying within the law. In other words, no one can say "you're carrying legally, so you can't carry".

What you seem to be introducing is a social or moral obligation for the OP to listen to the "manager" and do as he's told. However, as stated previously, there is no social or moral obligation that the OP HAS to follow, aside from wherever his conscience tells him to. He has a Right, enumerated in the 2A and Article 32 of the IN Constitution, and legally allowed by the State Police according to Indiana law, to carry his sidearm. He was doing so, within the law as he's allowed.

He offered to follow the law and leave if that was the request of the "manager", however the "manager" was not making that request (the argument about not paying is another issue).

Property law says that people have a right to property and the free use thereof without interference. The OP wasn't interfering to the "managers" possession of the property or the free use. He wasn't keeping customers from being there, nor was he forcing the "manager" to give him the property (i.e. robbing the place). On the contrary, the "manager" was interfering with the OPs property right by attempting to restrict the possession and free use (carrying) of his sidearm. This is why the OP refused to comply.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I dont agree that it is a correct analog, as rape is a crime, carrying a gun openly is not..

Trespassing would be a crime if he was repeatedly asked to leave

After you are asked to leave the gun or banana becomes immaterial.

 

[bglaze]

What you seem to be introducing is a social or moral obligation for the OP to listen to the "manager" and do as he's told. However, as stated previously, there is no social or moral obligation that the OP HAS to follow, aside from wherever his conscience tells him to.

 

[bglaze]

Trespassing would be a crime if he was repeatedly asked to leave

After you are asked to leave the gun or banana becomes immaterial.

The OP was not asked to leave at all.

However, maybe I missed the part of this conversation that you guys are referring to...

 

[sj kahr k40]

The OP was not asked to leave at all.

However, maybe I missed the part of this conversation that you guys are referring to...

Not a problem, this thread is everywhere!

 

[finity]

yes he does, but as has been pointed out in this thread, you have no rights in someone else's house. This is Fenways house and Scutter is an agent acting on Fenway's behalf.

Again this is Fenway's house and Fenway does not allow name calling, and most of us don't condone it. It is uncalled for, particularly in this thread which has been one of the most civil of its kind I have seen on INGO in a while and I'm sure most of us would like it to stay that way. Also, I take it more personal that he would call out the OP because I have met him and listened to him speak on many subjects and I do not believe that it is in his character and upbringing to make this up (I have also met his father), and unlike Strato I am not speaking from what i have read but rather what I have heard in person.




Finity I also would like to commend you on your post, That must have taken some time.

First off, Thanks to everybody for the fine words of encouragement.

And yes, that post took FOREVER to compose. Alas, it's a curse...

Now to the subject of your post, rmabrey:

+1

Please feel free to insert any purple you may think I meant to imply from my post.

I was trying to make a point that seems to be lost on many here.

...Here's my rebuttal...

I almost agree with all of your post except:

He has no Constitutional rights on anothers private property, including a business. Whether you're speaking of US or IN, Constitutional Rights don't apply on someone else's property.

Decorum suggests that he should have been the bigger person & just left when the manager gave him two options that he didn't care to aquiesce to.

I can't see why so many otherwise responsible adults can't seem to understand that concept.

WHY potentially get the police involved in a matter that should have easily been settled by mature adults acting in a civil & responsible manner? Why do people have the idea that it's OK to do as they want at the expense of others? Again, I say, THAT is the problem with the world today.

I know the adage goes "why can't we all just get along?" Well...that's why.

I don't think there's anything more useful to be said. I think I've already made half the posts in this thread (if you count my one EPIC post as 100 ).

Thanks for the great (mostly? - tsk, tsk, Mr. Strato ) civil debate.

And with that, I'm outta here!


Oh, what the heck:
This thread wouldn't be complete without an epic . OK, I'm not sure it hasn't already happened but I don't think so, so...

Who's going to the 1500?

I've never been but I'm going to my first one tomorrow.

See ya there!

 

[rmabrey]

I'm just bamboozeled you guys give that fodder any credibility!
Have you actually read this stuff???

"unlike Strato I am not speaking from what i have read " THAT explains it!

"I did take the opportunity to explain to him the importance of keeping silent when speaking with cops" keeping silent when talking indeed...

Whats that squeaking sound?