Gov't power to shut down churches

[BehindBlueI's]

I worked with a guy who was short two fingers after getting caught stealing in Turkey.

Who whacked his fingers?

Turkish legal code:

Offenses Against Property
Larceny
ARTICLE 141-(1) Any person who takes other’s movable property from its place without the consent of the owner to derive benefit
for himself or third parties is punished with imprisonment from one year to three years.
(2) All kinds of energy with economic value is also considered movable property.
Qualified Larceny
ARTICLE 142-(1) In case of commission of offense of larceny;
a) In public institutions and corporations no matter who is the owner, or in places reserved for worship or by
stealing the property used for in public interest or services,
a) By stealing the property under custody in public places or buildings or their attachments,
b) By stealing the property in the transportation vehicles provided for public use, or in arrival/departure terminals,
c) By stealing the property reserved for prevention of damages likely to be caused by a disaster or mitigation of its
affects,
d) By stealing the property left in a certain place for use upon requirement,
Page 36 of 76
Legislationline 10/25/2009
e)By unlawful use of energy,
the offender is sentenced to imprisonment from two years to five years.
(2) In case of commission of this offense;
a) Against a person who is incapable to protect his belongings, or by taking advantage of a death,
b) By taking away the property carried on with a special skill,
c) By taking advantage of the fear or panic resulting from a natural disaster or social events,
d) By unlocking a door or safe with a counterfeited key kept unlawfully,
e) By use of data processing systems without consent,
f) By trying to conceal his identity or showing himself as a public officer although he is not authorized to do so,
g) By lifting cattle kept in shelters, herds or open places,
the offender is sentenced to imprisonment from three years to seven years. In case of commission of offense against a person who
cannot defend himself due to corporal or spiritual disability by executing the acts mentioned in paragraph (b) of this subsection, the
punishment to be imposed is increased up to one thirds.
(3) In case of commission of this offense by breach of rules relating to liquefied energy or any kind of energy in the form of gas, the
punishment is determined in consideration of provisions of the second subsection. In case of commission of this offense within the
frame of activities of an organized group, the offenders are sentenced to imprisonment up to fifteen years and also imposed punitive
fine up to ten thousand days.
In case of commission of offense during the night
ARTICLE 143-(1) In case of commission of offense of larceny during the night, the punishment is increased up to one third.
Conditions subject to less punishment
ARTICLE 144-(1) In case of commission of offense of larceny;
a) For a property under joint or co-ownership,
b) To collect a debt receivable based on a legal relation,
the offender is punished with imprisonment from two months to one years, or imposed punitive fine upon complaint.
Property with less value
ARTICLE 145-(1) Punishment to be imposed against the offense of larceny may be reduced or totally lifted if the value of the
property stolen is determined to be less.

Side note, didn't several people on INGO recently think shooting at thieves was a good idea?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Who whacked his fingers?

Turkish legal code:


Side note, didn't several people on INGO recently think shooting at thieves was a good idea?

Local .gov did it. As for that last point, I am not trying to draw a divide there, just making the observation of fact. As a young man on an industrial construction site for the first time (as opposed to my then-native highway construction), I noticed the missing fingers and inquired thinking it most likely an accident at work with the intent to avoid learning how he did it through experience. He proceeded to explain to me that he had been in the Navy and when on shore leave in Turkey, those fingers got sticky and he got caught, resulting in the Turks keeping them.

 

[JTScribe]

Saudi Arabia Cuts Off Thief's Hand as Punishment - Middle East - Haaretz - Israeli News Source Haaretz.com

Our 'friend and ally' Saudi Arabia.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

From their" holy" book.

Qur'an, Sura 8:12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them." Qur'an, Sura 9:5: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued."

 

[jamil]

From their" holy" book.

Qur'an, Sura 8:12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them." Qur'an, Sura 9:5: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued."

Changed color contrast so I could read it.

 

[T.Lex]

People of the Book == Christians and Jews
Pagans != Christians and Jews

Anyway, back to the OP, sorta, it looks like Catholic Charities resettled that Syrian family against Gov. Pence's wishes. Thank God for the separation of church and state.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

People of the Book == Christians and Jews
Pagans != Christians and Jews

Anyway, back to the OP, sorta, it looks like Catholic Charities resettled that Syrian family against Gov. Pence's wishes. Thank God for the separation of church and state.

Pagans were polythiests at the time.

And yes, "People of the Book" included Jews and Christians from the start, along with a few now dead religions (Zoroastrian, I think?). (Allah is simply Arabic for God, no different than Yahweh for the Jews, it's all the same diety, the God of Abraham). It was in it's broadest sense, all monotheistic religious texts prior to the Quran.

If Hindus or Buddhists are People of the Book was, and is, some controversy among Muslims. Buddha was recognized as a prophet among some Muslims, and for practical purposes if not religious purposes Hindus were declared sorta-kinda-close-enough when the Persians took India.


Now, Capt. Caveman, would you like to put some context to the quotes? Or just pluck them out and use them to show and "unholy" Islam is? That's done with the Holy books quite a bit, isn't it? Selectively presented to twist the message?

To quote ol' Billy:

[h=1]“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”[/h]

So, other than just selectively quote, let's see what the chapter is about.

It's God talking to Angels about a specific battle. These were not commands for men to follow and were not "general orders" for how to live or how to treat others. Let's expand the reading a bit beyond just a line or two.

[Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."

And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah . Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

[Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

"That [is yours], so taste it." And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.

O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].

And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Etc. The entire verse deals with one specific battle, the Battle of Badr, in which Angels were sent to help in the battle.

You might as well quote passages concerning the drowning of soldiers pursuing Moses to make the case Jews are commanded to drown people.

 

[JettaKnight]

Saudi Arabia Cuts Off Thief's Hand as Punishment - Middle East - Haaretz - Israeli News Source Haaretz.com

Our 'friend and ally' Saudi Arabia.

Thieves suck. Maybe we can learn from them.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Local .gov did it. As for that last point, I am not trying to draw a divide there, just making the observation of fact. As a young man on an industrial construction site for the first time (as opposed to my then-native highway construction), I noticed the missing fingers and inquired thinking it most likely an accident at work with the intent to avoid learning how he did it through experience. He proceeded to explain to me that he had been in the Navy and when on shore leave in Turkey, those fingers got sticky and he got caught, resulting in the Turks keeping them.

Did he get to keep the bones in a bag around his neck?

People do sometimes embellish a bit. I think a service member being punished in such a way would likely be international news, don't you? It was internationa news when some kid in Singapore got caned for vandalizing cars, IIRC. I won't say it didn't happen, but I'd not be so sure it did either.

Saudi Arabia Cuts Off Thief's Hand as Punishment - Middle East - Haaretz - Israeli News Source Haaretz.com

Our 'friend and ally' Saudi Arabia.

One of the most severe Islamic nations cut one robber's hand off in 2013. That surely means that it's an epidemic that affects the entire Muslim world. I'd probably have went with all the executions for drug smuggling over a serial robber, but that's just me.

 

[jamil]

Did he get to keep the bones in a bag around his neck?

People do sometimes embellish a bit. I think a service member being punished in such a way would likely be international news, don't you? It was internationa news when some kid in Singapore got caned for vandalizing cars, IIRC. I won't say it didn't happen, but I'd not be so sure it did either.



One of the most severe Islamic nations cut one robber's hand off in 2013. That surely means that it's an epidemic that affects the entire Muslim world. I'd probably have went with all the executions for drug smuggling over a serial robber, but that's just me.

I imagine that it's a customary practice that the more modern nations have socially evolved away from. It seems obvious that some Muslim nations may still have some evolving to do.

 

[JTScribe]

I imagine that it's a customary practice that the more modern nations have socially evolved away from. It seems obvious that some Muslim nations may still have some evolving to do.

Apparently not, according to BBI.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/23/saudi-arabia-poet-sentenced-death-apostasy

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/16/gulf-states-fail-protect-domestic-workers-serious-violence

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/09/26/saudi-arabias-troubling-death-sentence

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/07/bahrain-free-opposition-figures

https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2012/09/28/bahrain-continuing-abuse-migrant-workers

https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2012/06/08/qatar-abuse-migrant-workers

 

[Arthur Dent]

Nice. No, we should f*cking deliberately let them engage in treason. In deference to INGO rules, I am going to refrain from further comment.

Anyone we disagree with politically or religiously is committing treason? You should change your name to BerlinDave1934.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Anyone we disagree with politically or religiously is committing treason? You should change your name to BerlinDave1934.

You have to be sh*tting me. You are defending people who we know for a fact, and knew for a fact at the time were helping a hostile foreign government in its efforts to undermine the United States? Are you for real?

You have left me with the conclusion that you are one of those people who have done much to facilitate the republic reaching the sorry state in which it is presently found.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Apparently not, according to BBI.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/23/saudi-arabia-poet-sentenced-death-apostasy

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/16/gulf-states-fail-protect-domestic-workers-serious-violence

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/09/26/saudi-arabias-troubling-death-sentence

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/07/bahrain-free-opposition-figures

https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2012/09/28/bahrain-continuing-abuse-migrant-workers

https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2012/06/08/qatar-abuse-migrant-workers

Really? Now you're throwing up headlines about immigrant worker abuse and pretending like I said there weren't problems. Here, I'll repost and make it a bit bigger for you.

Didn't take long to get back to terrorism once I pointed out there are plenty of Muslim nations that don't have those issues and plenty of non-Muslim countries that do, did it? Islam, and Islamic nations, span the gamut. There are cultural backwaters of ignorance and poverty and there are sophisticated wealthy global trade centers. There are democracies and there are tyrannies, and there are plenty of in-betweens. You can cherry pick to create the narrative of evil if you like, but taking a broader view and looking at the good and the bad might be a better perspective. There are many screwed up things in the Middle East, although I would argue they are despite Islam and not because of it. The treatment of immigrant workers in Qatar is a prime example. It doesn't get a lot of play in the media here because it isn't as sexy as a stoning, and labor disputes are a pretty modern and normal thing...but about 2,000 workers have DIED constructing soccer stadiums over the last few years. They die mostly from heat exhaustion because their working conditions are freaking horrible. I talked about it a bit in my thread on living in the Middle East, construction workers living in dry stack block houses near the things they are building, and weather in the 130 degree range. They literally work Indians and Nepalis to death, which tells you something about how screwed up Nepal and India are that workers are willing to take those risks. Islam teaches charity and compassion for the poor, not exploiting them until they die on your project. It was one of the most disgusting things I saw there. However it's not because they are Muslim, it's despite the fact they are Muslim.

At least have the decency to keep the debate honest. I didn't say the ME is without fault or there's not room for improvement. Quite the opposite. I even EXPRESSLY MENTIONED POOR TREATMENT OF IMMIGRANT WORKERS...yet "not according to BBI?"

I *lived* there for 2 years. I saw it first hand, and I've mentioned it on INGO well before this thread came into existence when talking about the need for legal protection for workers.

 

[Arthur Dent]

You have to be sh*tting me. You are defending people who we know for a fact, and knew for a fact at the time were helping a hostile foreign government in its efforts to undermine the United States? Are you for real?

You have left me with the conclusion that you are one of those people who have done much to facilitate the republic reaching the sorry state in which it is presently found.

During the days of Joe McCarthy people were prosecuted because they belonged to the wrong political party. Lives and careers were ruined over this, for nothing more than thinking differently. Any that were jailed were jailed for supposed perjury while being persecuted in a congressional hearing for not belonging to the correct political parties. Do you really think that's okay?

 

[IndyDave1776]

During the days of Joe McCarthy people were prosecuted because they belonged to the wrong political party. Lives and careers were ruined over this, for nothing more than thinking differently. Any that were jailed were jailed for supposed perjury while being persecuted in a congressional hearing for not belonging to the correct political parties. Do you really think that's okay?

The stupid. It f*cking burns. We had intercepted communications between a whole sh*tload of citizen/spies and Moscow. McCarthy was right, was proven right, and was proven right BEFORE his public demonization began.

 

[Arthur Dent]

The stupid. It f*cking burns. We had intercepted communications between a whole sh*tload of citizen/spies and Moscow. McCarthy was right, was proven right, and was proven right BEFORE his public demonization began.

I've researched this and except for a couple of websites that think McCarthy was the stuff everything else says otherwise. His claims were BS, unfounded, and when he decided to go after the military he was left all by his Red Scare lonesome. None of his claims panned out and he looked like a fool in the end.

 

[Expat]

I've researched this and except for a couple of websites that think McCarthy was the stuff everything else says otherwise. His claims were BS, unfounded, and when he decided to go after the military he was left all by his Red Scare lonesome. None of his claims panned out and he looked like a fool in the end.

Well I have researched it even more and IndyDave1776 is right and you are wrong. I know it, you know it and the INGOistas know it. You are simply an example of the adage that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Well I have researched it even more and IndyDave1776 is right and you are wrong. I know it, you know it and the INGOistas know it. You are simply an example of the adage that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

Let the prosecutions and kangaroo court begin!

 

[T.Lex]

McCarthy may have been correct (we don't really know what list of names he was referring to, or how many were actually spies) but he was not right in the sense of freedom.

To the extent there were socialists in gov't, that was their right to espouse whatever political beliefs they wanted. If they were spies, then they should have been prosecuted. If the gov't they worked for allowed them to share sensitive information, then that is on the gov't.

By the way, any sense of irony that gov't spying on USian citizens back then seemed a bit more tolerable? "The good old days weren't all so good...."