Gov't power to shut down churches

[T.Lex]

So you don't think most of the sources of jihad today are political or economic goals at their root? The establishment of a state? Reclaiming a homeland? Opposing outside interference? Feelings of injustice in how resources are distributed? Feelings of social injustice and being a plaything of the powerful?

My friend - that's exactly what I'm saying the most visible calls for jihad are about, today.

IMHO, Daesh is a political force leveraging the emotional connection of a shared religion. As evidence that it is less religious than political, I would point out that very few targets outside of Islamic countries are actually religious. A few synagogues here and there, but from what I can tell, there haven't been any serious attacks on Western Christian churches. Instead, the targets are cultural (and secular, like bars and bar districts) or economic.

Truly, the most religious violence is directed along the Sunni/Shia rift. Yazidis and other minorities notwithstanding.

What was The Arab Spring about? The same narratives.

My understanding was that the Arab Spring was more secular pushback, seeking justice and representation. And it was a missed opportunity, IMHO.

 

[JTScribe]

Really? What's Jordans horrible issue with the treatment of religious minorities? Qatar? Bahrain? Malaysia?
Cruel and unusual punishment for petty crimes? Ok. What's Jordan's punishment for petty theft? Forgery? Simple battery? Qatar? Bahrain?

Gay rights, yeah, that's a fact. Women's rights, yeah, that's a fact. How much of that stems from religion vs culture is debatable, and the Quran calls for equality between the sexes with a recognition of differences. If Islam is the issue there, than non-Islamic countries ought not to have those issues, though, right? Probably why Russia is so open to gay rights. I suppose you'll call for the reformation of Hinduism if I can show India is severely lacking in basic human rights for girls and women?

Out of curiosity, where did most of the opposition to gay rights in the US come from? Ready to call for reformation of any involved religions there? If a Muslim does anything, it's because they are a Muslim. If a Christian does something, it's in spite of being Christian. Right?

Depends on the Christian; I'm one and I couldn't care less about what gays want to do with their lives. They have free will. I'm worried more about my own sin than I am theirs.

Jordan does tend to be more westernized than the others, hopefully they will be an example, but much of that is because of the charisma of the King.

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud

In the late 20th century, the trend in Muslim countries has been to re-introduce hudud laws. By 2013 approximately 12 of the 50 or so Muslim-majority countries had made hudud applicable,[41] mostly since 1978. In 1979 Pakistan instituted the Hudood Ordinances. In July 1980 the Islamic Republic of Iran stoned to death four offenders in Kerman. By the late 1980s, Mauritania, Sudan, and the United Arab Emirates had "enacted laws to grant courts the power to hand down hadd penalties". During the 1990s Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and northern Nigeria followed suit.

Dubai, UAE and Qatar are also generally thought to be more westernized but that is only to some extent . . .

But yeah, they're totally cool.

BBC NEWS | UK | Woman arrested for 'sex on beach'

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It is insulting that this talk is about Islams need to reform when Islam is just fine in the minds and actions of billions of people. Using terrorists as the baseline while ignoring that fact is simple bigotry.

Don't be silly. It is no more bigotry to talk about defeating the enemy's use of jihad than to say the way to defeat Communism is to undermind the Russian peoples faith in Communism.

Just because one wants Communism defeated does not mean that they are bigoted to the Russians (or the Poles, or the Germans, or the Hungarians, or the Bulgarians, inter alia).

The way to defeat our enemy so that there is no more bloodshed is to undermine the belief in jihad. Take away ISIL's "moral superiority" and the recruits stop. The replacement pool shrinks and it's territory retracts and the people of the Middle East (who are mostly Muslims) are free from ISIL and their totalitarian rule.

That's not bigotry. It is victory.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't be silly. It is no more bigotry to talk about defeating the enemy's use of jihad than to say the way to defeat Communism is to undermind the Russian peoples faith in Communism.

Just because one wants Communism defeated does not mean that they are bigoted to the Russians (or the Poles, or the Germans, or the Hungarians, or the Bulgarians, inter alia).

The way to defeat our enemy so that there is no more bloodshed is to undermine the belief in jihad. Take away ISIL's "moral superiority" and the recruits stop. The replacement pool shrinks and it's territory retracts and the people of the Middle East are free from ISIL and their totalitarian rule.

That's not bigotry. It is victory.

Ah, but see that's not how you've couched your argument. Defeating the enemies use of jihad is not the same as "Islam needs reforming". You are still making the argument that Islam is the enemy, not that terrorists are the enemy, and your Communism example simply makes that point again. Islam as a whole is not the idealogy you are fighting, although from this thread and others I've learned plenty of people here believe so. I've explained it as well as I can, if you don't get it at this point I can't help you.

If you think the Islamic State disappears when outsiders tell it Islam needs reform, again, I can't help you. ISIS at this point is sort of like a street gang. A sense of belonging, a fantastic recruitment tool of "join us or die" in areas they control, etc. If you really think simply reframing what "jihad" is will simply make this go away, again, I can't help you. That economic and social issues that lead to violence will simply disappear and that some new narrative won't pop up to recruit (ie, jihad works for Palstianians vs Israel, but a different narrative was succesfully used for Palestinian vs Jordan or for Turk V Arab), I can't help you.

The way you've proposed it would simply make it harder for those Muslims reaching out to radicals and bringing them back into the fold of peaceful Muslims and gives more propaganda and a seige mentality to those who would radicalize more while accomplishing nothing. Again, if you don't see it at this point I can't help you.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Defeating the enemies use of jihad is not the same as "Islam needs reforming".

I see no difference. Jihad must be recast. We can do that with agitprop and working within sympathetic elements in the umma.

You are still making the argument that Islam is the enemy

I am not. I am pointing out how to defeat the enemy, ISIL, AQT, inter alia without having to shed blood and treasure.

If you really think simply reframing what "jihad" is will simply make this go away, again, I can't help you.

Yes, reforming the concept of jihad is the key to victory here. Jihad is the bridge to extremism. Blow this bridge, the offensive against us falters.

 

[Libertarian01]

The enemy of every civilized society is any extremist fundamentalism of any religion that refuses to accept that others do NOT see things their way! It is the intolerance of another belief system that is the enemy. No single religion has a monopoly on intolerance, and no religion is immune from it.

It is the intolerance that must be defeated. Terrorism is only a tactic.

 

[T.Lex]

It is the intolerance that must be defeated. Terrorism is only a tactic.

I don't really disagree. But, a "war on intolerance" would be about as effective as a "war on [strike]terror[/strike] hate." Intolerance is part of the human condition, generally.

The tactic of violence we can at least punish.

 

[Libertarian01]

I don't really disagree. But, a "war on intolerance" would be about as effective as a "war on [strike]terror[/strike] hate." Intolerance is part of the human condition, generally.

The tactic of violence we can at least punish.

No argument there chief! That IS the problem. However, we can do something about terrorism through helping to educate the population of these countries and supporting a more secular, less extremist, line of teaching.

This of course would be through the use of private, voluntary donations and NOT government programs!

Doug

 

[Arthur Dent]

He told us the truth that certain domestic enemies didn't want to hear and managed to silence, and now the country is in the sh*tter because of it. Tell me again what is wrong with telling the truth, especially when the hard evidence that it was truth existed at the time and was deliberately kept secret and NOT acted upon.

So we should prosecute, jail, and prevent those of the "incorrect" political affiliation from working for the government?

 

[IndyDave1776]

So we should prosecute, jail, and prevent those of the "incorrect" political affiliation from working for the government?

Nice. No, we should f*cking deliberately let them engage in treason. In deference to INGO rules, I am going to refrain from further comment.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

The problem is not with a religion. Islam is not a religion. Its a political movement disguised as a religion. They've never changed their tactics and they wont change now. We will NOT redefine jihad, we will not reason with them and we will not be able to change any aspect of their attempted caliphate unless we kill them.
There will come a time when this becomes apparent to all non muslims.
This video is 45 minutes long but well worth the time. He also offers copies of the koran without all the redundancies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

 

[Kirk Freeman]

This video is 45 minutes long but well worth the time. He also offers copies of the koran without all the redundancies.

They spoke Roman?

I stopped listening there.

 

[Libertarian01]

I think we can find many problems with Islam if we look hard enough. Of course, we can do the same with Christianity.

Both are religions. Both have the invisible man in the sky spilling his rules, regulations, and doctrine to the "Chosen One" who then passes those rules on to the rest of us.

We could look at all of the horrors brought on by the one, holy apostolic/catholic church during the crusades, the inquisition, the protestant reform movement, etc. One difference is that the catholic church had a Pope at the top who dictated the direction of the church. Islam has no Pope, so each little Imam gets to be the big cahuna in his little part of the world. And just as the Pope didn't give up power without a fight, neither are the isolated little Islamic priests giving up theirs without a fight.

I believe that as mentioned above, there is a real problem between the doctrine of Islam and the Middle Eastern culture. The Middle Eastern culture has, to a certain degree, twisted Islam to support a very unwavering cultural consistency. The same happened in the United States by the Klan, resistance to science, resistance to anything that challenged a narrow view of how society "should" be. However, the Middle Eastern culture has abused this far more than modern western culture, at least in modern times.

Regards,

Doug

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The problem is not with a religion. Islam is not a religion. Its a political movement disguised as a religion. They've never changed their tactics and they wont change now. We will NOT redefine jihad, we will not reason with them and we will not be able to change any aspect of their attempted caliphate unless we kill them.
There will come a time when this becomes apparent to all non muslims.
This video is 45 minutes long but well worth the time. He also offers copies of the koran without all the redundancies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

Well, if its on YouTube it has to be true. No reason to look any further or do any independent research. BTW, where can I get an edited Bible from an obviously biased source and then cite it to prove my own points?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Depends on the Christian; I'm one and I couldn't care less about what gays want to do with their lives. They have free will. I'm worried more about my own sin than I am theirs.

Jordan does tend to be more westernized than the others, hopefully they will be an example, but much of that is because of the charisma of the King.

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud

In the late 20th century, the trend in Muslim countries has been to re-introduce hudud laws. By 2013 approximately 12 of the 50 or so Muslim-majority countries had made hudud applicable,[41] mostly since 1978. In 1979 Pakistan instituted the Hudood Ordinances. In July 1980 the Islamic Republic of Iran stoned to death four offenders in Kerman. By the late 1980s, Mauritania, Sudan, and the United Arab Emirates had "enacted laws to grant courts the power to hand down hadd penalties". During the 1990s Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and northern Nigeria followed suit.

Dubai, UAE and Qatar are also generally thought to be more westernized but that is only to some extent . . .

But yeah, they're totally cool.

BBC NEWS | UK | Woman arrested for 'sex on beach'

What's the possible penalty in the US for having sex on a public beach and assault on a police officer? That's really what you want to go with for cruel and unusual punishment for minor offenses?

So ready to compare to Hindu nations yet?

 

[JTScribe]

What's the possible penalty in the US for having sex on a public beach and assault on a police officer? That's really what you want to go with for cruel and unusual punishment for minor offenses?

So ready to compare to Hindu nations yet?

The 'assault on a police officer' is a cherry on top. The key is in the final sentence: The Foreign Office website states that in Dubai public displays of affection are unacceptable and sex outside marriage is illegal throughout the UAE.

You don't think dismemberment for theft is cruel and unusual punishment? Stoning for rape or adultery?

I'll worry about Hindus when they start flying planes into skyscrapers.

 

[JTScribe]

Oh, and, apropos of nothing . . .

Fmr. FBI Counterterrorism Agent: We?ve Received ?Nearly Zero Help? from U.S. Muslim Community Since 9/11 - Breitbart

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The 'assault on a police officer' is a cherry on top. The key is in the final sentence: The Foreign Office website states that in Dubai public displays of affection are unacceptable and sex outside marriage is illegal throughout the UAE.

You don't think dismemberment for theft is cruel and unusual punishment? Stoning for rape or adultery?

I'll worry about Hindus when they start flying planes into skyscrapers.

Dismemberment for theft? You know, I didn't see a single one handed person the whole time I lived in the Middle East. I never saw anyone stoned in the countries I lived in, either. It happens, but it's the exception and is more cultural than Islamic. It's certainly not the norm, any more than dragging a gay person to death behind a pickup truck is the norm in the US. But, let's take a look at a nation well known for stoning thieves, adulterers, and rape VICTIMS, as well as a brutally enforced caste system...India.

Indian girl stoned to death by family because she loved somebody from the wrong village | Daily Mail Online
Eight arrested for stoning Indian couple to death - BBC News
Cattle thief stoned to death - The Times of India

So is the issue in India religious? Or cultural? What's the difference between India and Afghanistan in this regard?

Hindus fly into skyscrapers? Wait, the criteria is terrorism again?

I disagree. Let's throw terrorism out of the equation.

Muslim-majority nations still have horrible issues with treatment of religious minorities, cruel and unusual punishments for petty crimes, gay rights, women's rights, etc.

If that isn't a religion/political system in dire need of a reformation, what is?

Didn't take long to get back to terrorism once I pointed out there are plenty of Muslim nations that don't have those issues and plenty of non-Muslim countries that do, did it? Islam, and Islamic nations, span the gamut. There are cultural backwaters of ignorance and poverty and there are sophisticated wealthy global trade centers. There are democracies and there are tyrannies, and there are plenty of in-betweens. You can cherry pick to create the narrative of evil if you like, but taking a broader view and looking at the good and the bad might be a better perspective. There are many screwed up things in the Middle East, although I would argue they are despite Islam and not because of it. The treatment of immigrant workers in Qatar is a prime example. It doesn't get a lot of play in the media here because it isn't as sexy as a stoning, and labor disputes are a pretty modern and normal thing...but about 2,000 workers have DIED constructing soccer stadiums over the last few years. They die mostly from heat exhaustion because their working conditions are freaking horrible. I talked about it a bit in my thread on living in the Middle East, construction workers living in dry stack block houses near the things they are building, and weather in the 130 degree range. They literally work Indians and Nepalis to death, which tells you something about how screwed up Nepal and India are that workers are willing to take those risks. Islam teaches charity and compassion for the poor, not exploiting them until they die on your project. It was one of the most disgusting things I saw there. However it's not because they are Muslim, it's despite the fact they are Muslim.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Dismemberment for theft? You know, I didn't see a single one handed person the whole time I lived in the Middle East.

I worked with a guy who was short two fingers after getting caught stealing in Turkey.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Oh, and, apropos of nothing . . .

Fmr. FBI Counterterrorism Agent: We?ve Received ?Nearly Zero Help? from U.S. Muslim Community Since 9/11 - Breitbart

Eye roll.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/us/09muslim.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Since Sept. 11, the nation’s military has actively recruited Muslim-Americans, eager to have people with linguistic skills and a cultural understanding of the Middle East. Some 3,557 military personnel identify themselves as Muslim among 1.4 million people in the active-duty population, according to official figures. Muslim advocacy groups estimate the number to be far higher, as listing one’s religious preference is voluntary.
Many Muslims are drawn to the military for the same reasons as other recruits. In interviews, they cited patriotism, a search for discipline and their dreams of attending college. Some Muslims said they had also enlisted to win new respect in a country where people of their faith have struggled for acceptance.

And yet more than 3,500 Muslims have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Defense Department figures provided to The Times. As of 2006, some 212 Muslim-American soldiers had been awarded Combat Action Ribbons for their service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and seven had been killed.

Radicalization and U.S. Muslims - Council on Foreign Relations

Amid the debate over the threat posed by homegrown Islamic terrorism in the United States, a central aspect is the nature of the Islamic community's cooperation in counterterrorism efforts.Mark Fallon, a thirty-year veteran of federal law enforcement and counterintelligence, says the Muslim community has provided a "significant level of cooperation" in combating terrorism, and worries that the rhetoric from some critics risks alienating a population that "needs to be part of the solution." He says the process of radicalization, or "violent extremism," is usually a function of conditions highly personal to the subject, rather than ideological. Fallon sees engagement with the Muslim community as an essential tool in countering violent extremism.