For the Anti-RTW folks.

[actaeon277]

General Motors/UAW isn't even the topic of discussion and tends to be every anti-union supporters crutch. And yes unions negotiate a contract with the company and last time i checked they were binding. Or at least for the average citizen. FYI General Motors re-payed the debt. The only automaker that hasn't re-payed the debt is Chrysler. Ford is a UAW company and they didn't take the bail out. Still have negative input on those union workers that took concessions and aided Ford in their time of need? Unions aren't full of vile and evil people and they tend to do a lot for the communities they are located in. I have worked on both sides of the fence and honestly there are immature retards that work for both sides and those tend to be the people that label the group as a whole. If you look at it logically then it is nothing more than stereotyping and a form of blind racism. Maybe if the members of this forum would stop bashing the unions and the members and actually look at the individuals they are labeling then there wouldn't be so much hatred. Basically the majority of union members are honest, taxpaying, hardworking people and could care less if you are pro or anti-union. I mean heck unions still give felons an opportunity to pursue a fruitful career and promote equality. Is it fair to bash them over a career choice? Maybe "Right to Work" is the cats ass, but I'll bet you this. If it is the worst mistake this state ever makes then none of the people tooting their horn will ever admit it when or if it comes crashing down and I would bet my life on it there will be a way for all the supporters to blame the unions. Typical American society: blame african-americans for crime, Arabs for hating America, and unions for ruining their jobs. When in reality crime by numbers is equal, if people invaded America and killed hundreds of thousands people we would hate them too, and if it weren't for unions everyone would be working 15 hour days with no OSHA, benefits, or workers rights. It is a well known fact through the history of the world "never willingly give something up for you will never gain what is lost without bloodshed". It all looks great on paper and I hope that it does work as advertised, but history shows our government is famous for making the wrong choice for the people they are supposed to represent. Honestly I hope I have to eat my words and will do so gladly. Done with this topic I get to heated so good day and happy travels.

I agree. Bad or good people on both sides. Bad and good things about unions.

I sed to be against unions to, I listened to the news services. Thought they were outdated.
Then I started working for a corporation that ignores the rules that they have agreed on. Treat people as if they are machines, to be discarded when they have made a single, simple mistake. Try to get rid of them if they are injured in the line of duty.
But I also see bosses (mostly lower level bosses) that are good to work for. Look out for your safety. Try to make the best decisions about making the product. Know what they're doing.
And yes, I also see unions sometimes protect people that are lazy.

Good and Bad on both sides.

Sometimes, people that are against unions, are operating from a lack of experience with bad companies.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

GM hasn't paid back the bailout money, just the loan. And they did that with money from .gov in what was supposed to be a working capital account. We're taking a bath on the entire bailout.

GM's Phony Bailout Payback - Reason Magazine

And who got screwed in the government's intervention which cut out
"Secured Creditors"? Bond holders like Teacher's pension funds, State Police retirement funds, credit unions, etc. The UAW screwed over the retirement funds of other unions to preserve their own. Great solidarity there, guys!

 

[cordex]

Then I started working for a corporation that ignores the rules that they have agreed on. Treat people as if they are machines, to be discarded when they have made a single, simple mistake. Try to get rid of them if they are injured in the line of duty.
But I also see bosses (mostly lower level bosses) that are good to work for. Look out for your safety. Try to make the best decisions about making the product. Know what they're doing.
And yes, I also see unions sometimes protect people that are lazy.

Good and Bad on both sides.

Sometimes, people that are against unions, are operating from a lack of experience with bad companies.

I still don't see Right to Work as being a problem. If the union is a good and worthwhile group that preserves safety and works with a company to ensure the best interests of the workers as well as the best interests of the company as a whole, people will join it, right? On the other hand, if the union is a bunch of greedy, lazy goons trying to put a semi-legitimate face on organized crime, people won't have to join it. Doesn't RtW address the good and bad on both sides?

Also, the refrain from pro-union folks regarding Right to Work has been: "If you don't like the fact that the company is a union shop, don't work there."
Why can't that translate to: "If you don't like that a company treats their workers poorly, don't work there."?

 

[Sigasaurus]

Apparently belonging to a union is non an immutable characteristic or a "race." Unbelievably hyperbolic hysteria. There is no argument too low for the union shills to stoop.

#2 SEEMS TO SUPPORT MY COMPARISON. WEBSTERS IS FREE ONLINE GIVE IT A TRY.
rac·ism   [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

[hooky]

Your Webster definition supports CarmelHP's point.

Just sayin...

 

[Sigasaurus]

Apparently belonging to a union is non an immutable characteristic or a "race." Unbelievably hyperbolic hysteria. There is no argument too low for the union shills to stoop.

You want to talk about stooping low. Out of my entire 3 paragraph statement you choose to criticize over your interpretation of a words definition. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I insulted no individuals in my statement and feel it was stated in a good overall presentation. It amazes me that you would have to resort to childish criticism just to promote your agenda.

 

[Sigasaurus]

Your Webster definition supports CarmelHP's point.

Just sayin...

And it also supports the definition in which I used the word. Unfortunately words can have multiple definitions. Discrimination

Just Sayin

 

[Sigasaurus]

GM hasn't paid back the bailout money, just the loan. And they did that with money from .gov in what was supposed to be a working capital account. We're taking a bath on the entire bailout.

GM's Phony Bailout Payback - Reason Magazine

One last point then back in hibernation. At least they are making efforts and have made whatever crude attempts they may be. What have the non-union banks done to repay their bailout? The 99% protests are demanding answers along with a free ride and they get torn to shreds for wanting accountability. If the banks were union I'll bet this forum wouldn't be able to contain their cries for blood. This is all based on personal beliefs and angles. There is no right or wrong opinion in this matter only preference. My thoughts are that things are the way they are now for a reason and the Government doesn't seem to interested in anything in this state besides superbowls and the bottom line. I mean I just have a really hard time accepting that less than 10% of this states workforce has such a crippling affect on our states economy.

 

[Lex Concord]

General Motors/UAW isn't even the topic of discussion and tends to be every anti-union supporters crutch. And yes unions negotiate a contract with the company and last time i checked they were binding. Or at least for the average citizen. FYI General Motors re-payed the debt. The only automaker that hasn't re-payed the debt is Chrysler. Ford is a UAW company and they didn't take the bail out. Still have negative input on those union workers that took concessions and aided Ford in their time of need? Unions aren't full of vile and evil people and they tend to do a lot for the communities they are located in. I have worked on both sides of the fence and honestly there are immature retards that work for both sides and those tend to be the people that label the group as a whole. If you look at it logically then it is nothing more than stereotyping and a form of blind racism. Maybe if the members of this forum would stop bashing the unions and the members and actually look at the individuals they are labeling then there wouldn't be so much hatred. Basically the majority of union members are honest, taxpaying, hardworking people and could care less if you are pro or anti-union. I mean heck unions still give felons an opportunity to pursue a fruitful career and promote equality. Is it fair to bash them over a career choice? Maybe "Right to Work" is the cats ass, but I'll bet you this. If it is the worst mistake this state ever makes then none of the people tooting their horn will ever admit it when or if it comes crashing down and I would bet my life on it there will be a way for all the supporters to blame the unions. Typical American society: blame african-americans for crime, Arabs for hating America, and unions for ruining their jobs. When in reality crime by numbers is equal, if people invaded America and killed hundreds of thousands people we would hate them too, and if it weren't for unions everyone would be working 15 hour days with no OSHA, benefits, or workers rights. It is a well known fact through the history of the world "never willingly give something up for you will never gain what is lost without bloodshed". It all looks great on paper and I hope that it does work as advertised, but history shows our government is famous for making the wrong choice for the people they are supposed to represent. Honestly I hope I have to eat my words and will do so gladly. Done with this topic I get to heated so good day and happy travels.

Not a crutch, a direct response to this:

Last time I checked the government wasn't in the buisness of modifying or manipulating contracts

If you had specifically stated "union contracts", you might have been right.

That said, my response didn't touch on who union members were, or weren't, just whether government modifies or manipulates contracts. Even if it isn't an explicit act, they do it all the time.

 

[hooky]

You stated earlier that they had repaid the debt. They haven't. That's all I was saying.

The bank bailouts sucked too. You can find plenty of the same sentiment about the banks on here too.

 

[Lex Concord]

Can anybody tell me where the revolution lever is in the voting booth???

You'll find it under the handmade sign that says "Out of Order Pending Allocation of Union Authorized Labor for Repair".

 

[Sigasaurus]

Not a crutch, a direct response to this:



If you had specifically stated "union contracts", you might have been right.

That said, my response didn't touch on who union members were, or weren't, just whether government modifies or manipulates contracts. Even if it isn't an explicit act, they do it all the time.

It was a general response with only a specific response to you. IMO if you understood my point of union contracts then why respond negatively to my post. I mean a bit of helpful clarification is appreciated in spite of our difference in views. Honestly I respect your opinions and feel that we could all spend the next 150 years justifying our stance on the matter. I just hate being wrangled in with peoples views of unions. I came from the trade unions and the views people have of unions in general can't even compare to life in the trade unions. There is no protection or guarantee of work in the trades only 8 hours pay for 8 hours worked. I guess you would just have to experience the trade unions to understand my views. Good debate gentlemen and I am really done now lol

 

[Lex Concord]

It was a general response with only a specific response to you. IMO if you understood my point of union contracts then why respond negatively to my post.

Your statement was general, and I read it as such. I happened to highlight the one context in which it might be correct, but didn't have any inkling as to your intended meaning until the statement quoted directly above.

So if government isn't in the habit of altering UNION contracts, as you propose, but is in the habit of (de-facto) altering the contracts of others, as history clearly shows, what does that say about picking winners?

 

[Sigasaurus]

You'll find it under the handmade sign that says "Out of Order Pending Allocation of Union Authorized Labor for Repair".

The republicans would never let the democrat unions repair a voting machine it might mess up the rigged election results.

 

[Lex Concord]

The republicans would never let the democrat unions repair a voting machine it might mess up the rigged election results.

They both rig 'em, machines or not.

That said...
Watchdog Warns SEIU Contract For Nevada Voting Machines Poses 'Fraud' Concern | Fox News

 

[Sigasaurus]

Your statement was general, and I read it as such. I happened to highlight the one context in which it might be correct, but didn't have any inkling as to your intended meaning until the statement quoted directly above.

So if government isn't in the habit of altering UNION contracts, as you propose, but is in the habit of (de-facto) altering the contracts of others, as history clearly shows, what does that say about picking winners?

Just so you know Lex I support Ron Paul and he is a hardcore supporter of the "Right to Work" movement. I try to keep my beliefs and support to push for the greater good as a whole. My huge distrust of "Right to Work" has very little to do with my union membership. I just have a hard time understanding how the current legal state scares jobs out of state. Are the companies refusing to locate here promoting such poor wages, safety, and standards that they fear unionization?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Just so you know Lex I support Ron Paul and he is a hardcore supporter of the "Right to Work" movement. I try to keep my beliefs and support to push for the greater good as a whole. My huge distrust of "Right to Work" has very little to do with my union membership. I just have a hard time understanding how the current legal state scares jobs out of state. Are the companies refusing to locate here promoting such poor wages, safety, and standards that they fear unionization?

How about this ...

What right do you as a non-property owner have to tell a property owner how, when and why they will use their property in any way?

Why do you have a right to have anyone else provide you with a job?

 

[Lex Concord]

Happened to bump into this...

Apparent voter fraud in a Jersey election...at the intersection of Kennedy and Union..how apropos
Top Union Boss Reveals Voting Machine Fraud

 

[Sigasaurus]

How about this ...

What right do you as a non-property owner have to tell a property owner how, when and why they will use their property in any way?

Why do you have a right to have anyone else provide you with a job?

I don"t feel anyone is supposed to provide me with a job. I have a job b/c i am an all american badass at what I do

I am not really understanding the property owner question. I do own a house
If you are referring to unions bargaining with a company over labor then I generally look at it the same as i do our laws. We don't break the laws that mandate us, but they are in place as a reminder or a form of sub conscious control. I feel the union is a subtle reminder to the companies to do what's right. I know ,i know some unions abuse their position merely to impose their will at times. It is just I witness a balance of union and non-union working together everyday. Our company uses tons of non-union labor to complete jobs everyday and there is none of the alleged violence and hatred. I just don't think that the interpretation that a majority of the posters express about unions is accurate. They wonder why union members get defensive and in the same breath label them as a bunch of slobs and free loaders. I never see any posts on INGO about the SCABS kill another coworker, or non-union violence, etc etc etc. Why are so many members so focused on expressing their negative images of unions when generally union people could give 2 about what non-union is doing. Half the people that comment in these probably can't even spell union let alone tell you a lick of labor history. I just wish people would take into consideration the individuals instead of trying to form an opinion based on the UAW's image.

 

[Sigasaurus]

Happened to bump into this...

Apparent voter fraud in a Jersey election...at the intersection of Kennedy and Union..how apropos
Top Union Boss Reveals Voting Machine Fraud

This is the same state that created Jersey Shore. I try and ignore anything this state does.