For the Anti-RTW folks.

[Sigasaurus]

How do you know its because of the union?
Maybe it's management decisions.

Because my GranPappy said the union is the devil. That's why.

 

[Stschil]

Who do you blame? The union that bargained with the company. Or the company that agreed to the contract. Everyone blames the union. Guess what! It is no different than average joe running out and buying his brand spankin new LOADED F350 on credit and then a year from now realizing he can't afford it. Who do you blame the dealership or the douche that can seem to balance his checkbook. Companies agree to the obligations and terms of the agreement. If there is any blame to place then put it on everyone involved. Also did you scan past the part of the article where the union is working with the company to resolve the issue. Stop blaming unions for honoring an agreed upon contract. FYI when non-union companies run out of pension money they just stop paying it and leave their retirees to fend for themselves. Damn those unions trying to protect all those pesky senior citizens that worked their life away for Hostess. Imagine being promised a pension and not willingly choosing to step aside and just die. Those retirees depend on their pension. How would you feel if someone was taking away your parents or grand parents promised pension?

Not a very good example IMO. The truck buyer was never threatened or forced in any way to sign the loan paperwork, whereas Unions walk out, Unions threaten workers who wish to continue to work, unions use force or the threat of force, unions run crying to the gubbermint to get them to side with them to make employers sign these Contracts.

In Washington, unions stopped their employer from openingns non union assembly line in another state.

Boeing/NLRB Dispute Likely Ends With Machinist Union Settlement | FDL News Desk

National Labor Relations Board | Boeing | Labor Unions | Protecting Jobs from Government Interference Act | NLRB | Richard Alaniz | AccountingWEB.com

Temporary worker assaulted in OH in parking lot. Union involvement not proven, however it just so happened to have occured while they were striking and in the parking lot of the company being picketed

Cooper temporary worker assaulted - Wednesday, December 14, 2011 | Courier Electronic Edition - Findlay, Ohio: LOCAL NEWS

From personal experience: My grandfather was out in the hospital by carpenters union picketers (they served time for it) because he wanted to work and support his family (he was a member of the union but did not want to strike)

 

[Sigasaurus]

So typically you base your hatred of unions through a personal experience of your family. You are blaming the union for the short comings of Hostess and their management. The union is working with the company and all they are doing is protecting the rights of the retirees to their pension. I for one never frown upon looking out for the elderly. There is an old saying keep laughing cause your days coming. I find nothing wrong with honoring pensions and I would bet my life if it was you or your family that was losing their pension then you would change your tune.

 

[Mr. Habib]

So typically you base your hatred of unions through a personal experience of your family. You are blaming the union for the short comings of Hostess and their management. The union is working with the company and all they are doing is protecting the rights of the retirees to their pension. I for one never frown upon looking out for the elderly. There is an old saying keep laughing cause your days coming. I find nothing wrong with honoring pensions and I would bet my life if it was you or your family that was losing their pension then you would change your tune.

Can you please point us to the relevant portion of the US or state constitution that addresses a "right to a pension"?

 

[Stschil]

So typically you base your hatred of unions through a personal experience of your family. You are blaming the union for the short comings of Hostess and their management. The union is working with the company and all they are doing is protecting the rights of the retirees to their pension. I for one never frown upon looking out for the elderly. There is an old saying keep laughing cause your days coming. I find nothing wrong with honoring pensions and I would bet my life if it was you or your family that was losing their pension then you would change your tune.

No, I added my personal experience in support of my point. I have, in fact worked in union shops. I could could never understand why the unions were needed any more to be honest. OSHA watched these places like hawks, Management treated people well and the only grievances I ever saw lodged were petty, childish, "I didn't get my way" stuff that were eventually settled in favor of the employer.

Admittedly, my personal experience has something to do with my views, however they don't stop me from trying to look at this from a standpoint of knowledge rather than emotion.
The Union stance drums up emotion in its membership, but all you have to do is follow the money. When all is said and done, its the money that drives the bus here, not the wish to make things better for its membership.

 

[Sigasaurus]

It's called a contractual obligation. The employees worked under the terms of an agreement with the understanding that upon retirement they would receive a pension. Also if you would so kindly point out where the government is given the capacity or ability to deem a collective bargaining contract as a criminal offense. Last time I checked the government wasn't in the buisness of modifying or manipulating contracts.

 

[DRob]

Good question

Hmmm...lower paying job, or no job....which is better...

Perhaps all the unemployed union members who used to work at the GM Truck and Bus plant in Indy would care to answer. Oh, wait! They did answer. They voted for NO JOB!

First it's GM truck hood and door panels, then Twinkies. I sure hope this doesn't spread to the pork producers!

 

[Sigasaurus]

In all honesty, I can see where the manufacturing/company industries would be bound through a union setting. The part I don't agree with is punishing the trade/skilled labor unions. There are no companies bound by their union agreements. They are self-funded, trained , and maintained. The trade unions utilize their personal coalition of signatory contractors and bind none of the parties involved. They bid and compete in the workforce with no special priveledge.Another gripe I have is people tie the unions to prevailing wage. Prevailing wage was established in the fair wage act of 1935, and I hate to break the news to folks. But it will still be enacted and a part of state jobs "Right to work" or not. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that the legislation isn't altering the current standard.

 

[ATOMonkey]

No, I added my personal experience in support of my point. I have, in fact worked in union shops. I could could never understand why the unions were needed any more to be honest. OSHA watched these places like hawks, Management treated people well and the only grievances I ever saw lodged were petty, childish, "I didn't get my way" stuff that were eventually settled in favor of the employer.

Admittedly, my personal experience has something to do with my views, however they don't stop me from trying to look at this from a standpoint of knowledge rather than emotion.
The Union stance drums up emotion in its membership, but all you have to do is follow the money. When all is said and done, its the money that drives the bus here, not the wish to make things better for its membership.

+1 I have the exact same experience in 3 union shops in 2 states.

The company makes the factory safe because it makes them more money. The only foundries and factories I've been to that were dirty and dangerous, had TONS of scrap and were going out of business anyway. The most profitable factories and foundries have always been very clean and safe.

Both companies had legacy cost issues. This is because the executives negotiating the contract were happy to kick the cost can down the road, and the union was short sighted enough to get as much as possible, only looking through a 3 year window.

Neither side was terribly interested in the 20 or even 50 year picture like they should have been. Now that those 50 year costs are coming to fruition, people are taking a lot more interest in sustainable policy and fully funded programs, rather than "ponzi" type funding.

 

[ATOMonkey]

In all honesty, I can see where the manufacturing/company industries would be bound through a union setting. The part I don't agree with is punishing the trade/skilled labor unions. There are no companies bound by their union agreements. They are self-funded, trained , and maintained. The trade unions utilize their personal coalition of signatory contractors and bind none of the parties involved. They bid and compete in the workforce with no special priveledge.Another gripe I have is people tie the unions to prevailing wage. Prevailing wage was established in the fair wage act of 1935, and I hate to break the news to folks. But it will still be enacted and a part of state jobs "Right to work" or not. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that the legislation isn't altering the current standard.

As long as government contracts don't dictate prevailing wage, I don't have a problem with skilled trades either. I think they're a fantastic idea, honestly, no BS.

When you start putting in laws for prevailing wage, and dictating work hours, I take issue.

 

[Sigasaurus]

I can understand why a company doesn't want to pay an individual $70,000 a year to screw in a bolt or stack a box. I just feel if the legislation was more specific and the politicians would take the time to examine the laws as a whole it would be acceptable. I mean hell people say I am overpaid. I made $70,000 last year. I am a journeyman millwright, a journeyman electrician, and have a college degree. I completed 2 apprenticeships and 2 years of college. Carry 3 welding certifications and thousands of hours of on the job experience. In reality I am grossly underpaid and my union is the cause of this. If my union were to disappear I could make a killing, that is until I am old and broke down. I support trade unions 100% and even though I am trapped in my wages I accept this for the security and protection. IMHO it is all a crap shoot when it comes to the debate of union/non-union. I see the pros and cons I just don't trust individuals to do what is right when given the opportunity.

 

[TaunTaun]

Legislation and the Politicians.


Hmmmm...the idea is to keep those two things as far away from the private sector as possible.

 

[Stschil]

It's called a contractual obligation. The employees worked under the terms of an agreement with the understanding that upon retirement they would receive a pension. Also if you would so kindly point out where the government is given the capacity or ability to deem a collective bargaining contract as a criminal offense. Last time I checked the government wasn't in the buisness of modifying or manipulating contracts.

Look to what happened to GM and Chrysler retirees if you really believe the govt isn't in he business of modifying contracts.....

If you really want to go there, a contract made under duress is legally not considered valid. I would maintain that strikes, slowdowns, use of force, threatened legal action and personal threats would constitute duress and would therefore render these contracts invalid.
Part of what burns me to no end about this whole issue is that it is the workers who ALWAYS get screwed. The business owners AND the union leadership never have to bear the brunt of it, shoulder any respnsibility for it, or suffer the consequences. Joe the assembly line guy who put 25 years out on the line now has to scrape, whole Pete the business owner and Larry the Union boss retire to their homes in the Hamptons (or wherever your heart desires) in relative luxury.

Added: I believe and support the trades. It's skilled carpenters, electricians, millwrights, pipe fitters, etc that keep out country running. I like the way the incorporate training and certifications as a requirement for membership. You'll get no arguements from me on that issue. I have great respect for the skilled tradesman. UnSkilled labor is and different issue all together in my mind, and when looking at the companies that have fallen prey to bankruptcy, it is mainly in the unskilled labor arena.

 

[jsx1043]

I wonder who those 19,000 Interstate Bakery Union member employees will blame if they lose their jobs.
Certainly not the Union that bankrupted the company.


Probably Bush.....

Confirmed - The bakery and plant is in the outer zone of "Bush's Fault"

 

[jgreiner]

Your Twinkies and Cupcakes are in jeapardy..

Hostess files for bankruptcy protection citing pensions and labor as principle reasons
Twinkies maker Hostess seeks bankruptcy protection - WSJ.com

I read a good piece out of Michigan about Indiana's proposed RTW. They are running SCARED up there, if we pass it, they expect to lose a LOT of businesses and jobs to us.

 

[jgreiner]

Look to what happened to GM and Chrysler retirees if you really believe the govt isn't in he business of modifying contracts.....

If you really want to go there, a contract made under duress is legally not considered valid. I would maintain that strikes, slowdowns, use of force, threatened legal action and personal threats would constitute duress and would therefore render these contracts invalid.
Part of what burns me to no end about this whole issue is that it is the workers who ALWAYS get screwed. The business owners AND the union leadership never have to bear the brunt of it, shoulder any respnsibility for it, or suffer the consequences. Joe the assembly line guy who put 25 years out on the line now has to scrape, whole Pete the business owner and Larry the Union boss retire to their homes in the Hamptons (or wherever your heart desires) in relative luxury.

In the GM case, it was the INVESTORS that got screwed. The union made out like bandits. Obama saw to that.

These outrageous pensions and bennies either have to be logically addressed by the unions, or the unions will die off when the jobs all move overseas. We are in a GLOBAL ECONOMY now folks.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I can understand why a company doesn't want to pay an individual $70,000 a year to screw in a bolt or stack a box. I just feel if the legislation was more specific and the politicians would take the time to examine the laws as a whole it would be acceptable. I mean hell people say I am overpaid. I made $70,000 last year. I am a journeyman millwright, a journeyman electrician, and have a college degree. I completed 2 apprenticeships and 2 years of college. Carry 3 welding certifications and thousands of hours of on the job experience. In reality I am grossly underpaid and my union is the cause of this. If my union were to disappear I could make a killing, that is until I am old and broke down. I support trade unions 100% and even though I am trapped in my wages I accept this for the security and protection. IMHO it is all a crap shoot when it comes to the debate of union/non-union. I see the pros and cons I just don't trust individuals to do what is right when given the opportunity.

This law won't change any of that.

Guys will still get paid $70k plus overtime and benes to stack boxes, union or otherwise. They'll still get fully vested pensions after 20 years. Fully funded health care, etc.

Literally, the only thing that changes is whether you want to be part of the union or not on a particular job.

Federal Labor laws won't allow for different pay scales or benefits unless they're negotiated under a seperate contract. We called that a Two Tier pay system where new hires made a lower wage. That only lasted about 3 years, or one contract.

You also have National contracts on top of local contracts, and RTW won't affect any of the National contracts.

So, it really just comes down to "do you want union protection and union dues, or don't you?"

If you are employed outside of the union on the same job, you can be terminated at any time, since Indiana is an employment at will state. The only caveat being that you can't fire someone for discriminatory reasons.

Those are really the only differences. I can't see this legislation actually having much of an impact on places that are already established, or even with contractors since you already have Union and non-union tradesmen working side by side on a lot of jobs.

It may make a small difference on new work coming in to the state, but like I said before, RTW has no affect on ability to organize.

 

[Sigasaurus]

This law won't change any of that.

Guys will still get paid $70k plus overtime and benes to stack boxes, union or otherwise. They'll still get fully vested pensions after 20 years. Fully funded health care, etc.

Literally, the only thing that changes is whether you want to be part of the union or not on a particular job.

Federal Labor laws won't allow for different pay scales or benefits unless they're negotiated under a seperate contract. We called that a Two Tier pay system where new hires made a lower wage. That only lasted about 3 years, or one contract.

You also have National contracts on top of local contracts, and RTW won't affect any of the National contracts.

So, it really just comes down to "do you want union protection and union dues, or don't you?"

If you are employed outside of the union on the same job, you can be terminated at any time, since Indiana is an employment at will state. The only caveat being that you can't fire someone for discriminatory reasons.

Those are really the only differences. I can't see this legislation actually having much of an impact on places that are already established, or even with contractors since you already have Union and non-union tradesmen working side by side on a lot of jobs.

It may make a small difference on new work coming in to the state, but like I said before, RTW has no affect on ability to organize.

There in lies the problem. I am presently union and will continue to pay my dues unlike the lazy piece of that the union protects. The hard working honest individuals will continue to do what's right and the useless slugs will work the system. This is a total yin and yang discussion. Trust me I have my issues with unions and this boils down to my same theory of politicians. You just have to trust people to do what is right and I don't have much faith. Hell you can't even get people to open the door for women and senior citizens anymore let alone trust morals in this country.

 

[hooky]

There in lies the problem. I am presently union and will continue to pay my dues unlike the lazy piece of that the union protects. The hard working honest individuals will continue to do what's right and the useless slugs will work the system. This is a total yin and yang discussion. Trust me I have my issues with unions and this boils down to my same theory of politicians. You just have to trust people to do what is right and I don't have much faith. Hell you can't even get people to open the door for women and senior citizens anymore let alone trust morals in this country.

Have you ever considered that you may be able to strike a better deal for yourself, instead letting the union do it for you?

Not trying to stir the pot, just an honest question. I've always been of the mind that I could do better for myself than someone else could do for me.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Have you ever considered that you may be able to strike a better deal for yourself, instead letting the union do it for you?

Not trying to stir the pot, just an honest question. I've always been of the mind that I could do better for myself than someone else could do for me.

I think he said as much, but it comes with some risk.

As he said, old laborers aren't exactly in high demand. If you want to work with your hands, your whole career, you better either be in incredible shape, or be part of a union.

Otherwise, you need to make a career move, either into training or management.

So, if you wanted to be a laborer for your entire career, without union protection, you'd need to make big truck loads of money when you were young and then squirrel it away, because you probably aren't going to do hard work like that for more than 20 years. 30 years is pushing it. Competitively anway.

Then there is the caveat, that unskilled labor is plentiful so you really can't demand a high wage. So, you need to be really really good at what you do.

Life is really hard when you're paid for what you do rather than what you know. The union is there is spread the hardship around.

Like I said before, I have no problem with skilled trade or construction unions. They definitely have their place. I just have a problem with them, when they get into politics.