Focus on the front sight? It seems wrong to me. Here's why:

[actaeon277]

Does it help if you also bellow one long primal scream while dumping the mag?

[video=youtube;nY6PXoyNP1k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6PXoyNP1k[/video]

 

[Manatee]

If you don't use your front sight....just file it off. Or knock it out of the dovetail. Pesky thing just interferes with a smooth draw. Ruins the artistic values too.

.....OTOH misses in competitive shooting sports on close targets are almost always attributable to target focus and loss of front sight focus.

Go figure.

 

[rvb]

If you don't use your front sight....just file it off. Or knock it out of the dovetail. Pesky thing just interferes with a smooth draw. Ruins the artistic values too.

.....OTOH misses in competitive shooting sports on close targets are almost always attributable to [STRIKE]target[/STRIKE] NO focus and loss of front sight focus.

Go figure.

Not seeing ANYTHING is usually the reason we miss the close easy targets.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

That is one excellent post. Read it people.

thanks!

-rvb

 

[Manatee]

I don't agree with your modification of my post. Competitive shooters typically are not "unfocused" on a miss.

 

[wally05]

If I don't focus on my front sight, I tend to get wide open groups. I even played with it a bit going back and forth front sight and no front sight focus. Doing moving drills with small metal plates, I must focus on my front site or like Manatee says, I miss the target.

 

[rvb]

I don't agree with your modification of my post. Competitive shooters typically are not "unfocused" on a miss.

Those are the ONLY times I miss close targets... when I get too speed oriented and either I take my eyes off the sights/target and start looking for the next target before the shot breaks or I have a screw up and get "behind the curve" and panic shooting sets in and I'm not really focusing on anything well. In other words, I'm not focused on either the target or the sights in those cases. I've shot entire stages w/ a target focus when that's what was called for. If I miss a farther/hard shot, like a 15yd 8" plate, it's either trigger control, not shifting back to a FS focus, or [most likely] transitioning my focus to the next target too soon (same as what I described for a close target).

But what do I know about that gamey competition shooting stuff?

-rvb

 

[Manatee]

Well, do what you think is correct for you. All I will tell you is that most competitors and military use the front sight. When you get hit with the typical adrenaline rush and your vision tunnels it's difficult to think. If you learn "front sight" you'll never go wrong. If you learn "target" I guarandamtee you are going to miss at some point....and it may be the only time it really counts.

But, to each his own.

 

[esrice]

Great posts Ryan. That 'shift' isn't always addressed in shooting courses.

 

[rvb]

All I will tell you is that most competitors ...

Curious, do I actually know you? Do you compete? You have 0 posts in the shooting sports sub-forum.
Shall I dust off my copy of "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundament" [actually, it never really collects dust] to see what the best competitive shooters in the world say about it?

All I will tell you is ... use the front sight

So we may have a disconnect here... maybe I should clarify this so it doesn't confuse anyone...

I've been talking about our visual focus. What's clear vs what's blurry. You need to realize you can be focused on the target, and STILL USE THE FRONT SIGHT. The difference is between a crystal clear front sight with perfect alignment vs a clear target with blurry sights. If the target is close, and the sights are blurry, can you still see what you need to see to make a solid hit? Can you still call the shot? Of course you can.

Target Focus does not imply Hip Shooting.

On the flip side, can you make good hit's w/o any part of your brain registering on the gun or even seeing the sights? Yes. But it's those super close, blow the pasters off the target, set the target on fire, get the shot off right now situations. Seldom, seldom used in competition. hip shooting stuff. not to be confused w/ a target focus.

-rvb

 

[cobber]

Isn't this advice in large part for self-defense situations? Don't focus on the bad guy and start thinking about where you're going to hit him, how tall he is, what he ate for breakfast, etc.? Anything that breaks your concentration, or slows down the trigger press, is a bad thing.

Focus on the target once it's no longer a threat. But first check your sixes.

 

[Rob377]

That is one excellent post. Read it people.

+1

rvb knows his stuff.

 

[rvb]

Don't focus on the bad guy and start thinking about where you're going to hit him

I don't agree, and that kinda brings us full circle... I said in my first post that for best accuracy you need to find your target and point of aim, then shift your focus to the FS. If you start w/ a FS focus you'll struggle to find your point of aim. I think that carries over from shoot-n-see's to bad guys, too...

Snap your eyes to a picture hanging on the wall, now bring your thumb up between your eye and the picture and shift your focus to it, like you would a pistol. Do it again but focus on your thumb and align it to the picture. Do both a couple times as quickly as you can. Which is faster? Try it w/ paper plates at the range and see what gets the more accurate hits. put a shot timer on it...

-rvb

 

[Manatee]

Let's see....I don't know you either. Are you nationally ranked? Enough.

I make sights for a living and have done so for many years. I've studied the behavior and the reason folks miss in action sports. We've been talking in generalities. There are specific exceptions to any rule. But, I'm not going to tell a shooter to train to focus on the target and let his front sight get blurry. Never.

But, perhaps we're saying similar things in a different manner. Yes, your eyes need to move to acquire the target, but you need to have a front sight focus as you break the shot.

 

[rvb]

Great posts Ryan. That 'shift' isn't always addressed in shooting courses.

thanks.
often times too much emphasis on mechanics vs what you need to see...

-rvb

 

[rvb]

Let's see....I don't know you either. Are you nationally ranked? Enough.

I make sights for a living and have done so for many years. I've studied the behavior and the reason folks miss in action sports. We've been talking in generalities. There are specific exceptions to any rule. But, I'm not going to tell a shooter to train to focus on the target and let his front sight get blurry. Never.

sigh. I wasn't trying to make this a 'who's wang is bigger' thing. I was wondering if you actually shot competitively because I've at least shaken hands with most of the uspsa shooters and some of the idpa shooters in the state... thought I could put a name/face to your screenname. Also wondered since you were telling me what competition shooters do, if you actually do it...

Yes, your eyes need to move to acquire the target, but you need to have a front sight focus as you break the shot.

my position is.... "not always."

 

[netsecurity]

+1

rvb knows his stuff.

So essentially his post was saying to first focus on the target, and then focus on the front sites while firing? I'll try that at the range, because I usually do it the other way around.

While that may produce better accuracy, it isn't really practical in defense situations is it? I mean, isn't target identification paramount? Unless you have orders to shoot and kill anything that moves in front of you (as in trench warfare), you really can't just shoot without focusing on the target. And when you focus on the target, you really don't have time to then refocus on your sights, especially not if the other guy is shooting back at you.

PS, I think the reason I naturally shift my focus to the target before pulling the trigger is to identify where my bullet hits go.

 

[Manatee]

You brought it up.

I responded because the competency of shooters on a website like this varies tremendously. And words from experienced shooters are sometimes taken to heart, particularly by the newest members of the shooting community. Would you expect a novice to tackle a course like you do? Of course not. You would, I suspect, provide some helpful tips to keep them focused on fundamentals.

That's my point. If I was to think about the limited number of things that matter when I really needed to hit my target, front sight would be the last thing I would exclude from the list.

Congrats on your performance. You're obviously a used brass generator. Most of the people on gun websites are not.

 

[rvb]

I responded because the competency of shooters on a website like this varies tremendously. And words from experienced shooters are sometimes taken to heart, particularly by the newest members of the shooting community. Would you expect a novice to tackle a course like you do? Of course not. You would, I suspect, provide some helpful tips to keep them focused on fundamentals.

That's my point. If I was to think about the limited number of things that matter when I really needed to hit my target, front sight would be the last thing I would exclude from the list.

I also occasionally teach basic pistol shooting, though not so much since moving to IN. I'm an NRA instructor, but seldom use their ciriculum because I think it emphasizes all the wrong stuff new shooters want/need outside of safety. I recently taught a group from my church small-group. Yes, we talked fundamentals, the "traditional" sight pictures, etc, so they at least know about it...

But my emphasis is always trigger control, and aligning the sights. I flat told them I didn't care where they focused so long as they held the sights in aligment while moving the trigger straight back. You know what, I think we had a couple rounds go out of the A-zone all day, and I was letting them try different style guns, shooting around barricades, etc... folks who had never shot a gun before, or maybe pop's ol' 20ga when they were little. They may never take another pistol class and only burn a box of ammo/yr from here on out... I wanted them to leave confident they could quickly put rounds on an intruder at the end of the hall, use cover, use retention, use a flashlight even.

A perfect bullseye sight picture might have tightened up their groups a bit... so what?

The first fundamental to focus on is trigger control. Next is sight alignment. Next is a grip that allows the sights to return on target w/o work from the shooter. A perfectly focused FS drifts up into the top 3 if we are shooting groups or far/hard targets, otherwise, it's down there on the list...

For the last several months, I've been struggling w/ my vision in my right/dominant eye. Cannot seem to nail down a good prescription, keep going back to the doc. Can't get a crystal clear FS unless I switch eyes... Can't blame match performance on it, unfortunately.



-rvb

 

[Manatee]

All the fundamentals are important. On that we seem to agree. I'm not concerned with a bullseye picture for a handgun. The rear sight doesn't matter much at close range if the shooter has a solid, practiced grip. The front sight? I think it's very important. I'll just leave it there. I don't think we're saying things that are diametrically opposed. Just nuanced perspectives.

Good luck with the eyes. I had a recent vitreal detachment that is bugging the living sh** out of me.